121 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Requiemking, on 15 July 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

1: It really was.
1a: It actually was, considering the Warhammer has been meta since it's arrival.
2: Again, it was to be expected due to the Marauder being meta for so long.
3: Ah well. I'm not entirely sure if PGI's data collecting covers specific variants, or if it's just based on Chassis alone.
Over all, it seems like PGI is finally making an active move towards changing the meta, albeit, going the wrong way about it.

The Marauder was never meta. It's a solid heavy but not excellent at anything. The Jager was meta. The Black Knight was meta. The Timberwolf was meta. The Warhammer was meta. The KDK came out and caused a paradigm shift at the top end making every heavy not a Warhammer or Timberwolf un-meta (special use-case for Grasshopper and ERLL).

[FLG 01]

FupDup, on 15 July 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

1. PGI is not willing to give out large weapon quirks anymore.

2. A lot of the player base has an abject hatred of all weapon quirks that are stronger than 5%, if even that high.

Remember the old Grid Iron or Dragon 1N forum complaints? That would get repeated.

No, I joined October last year.
It is a shame that PGI does not hand out offensive quirks, because the BH2 would be a perfect candidate for it.

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

To boot, being able to turn nicely doesn't go against the lore. Not really. It's still a slow 'Mech with lots of guns.

Perhaps. Of course in the lore it was piloted by legends who could make them turn nicely.
I would just feel more comfortable if designs were quirked to their design philosophies. That means a slow, cumbersome but extremely well armed BH2. A player should need to overcome this drawback in order to use his massive weaponry. I know this is not working well in MWO at the moment.
But the solution should not be a band-aid like mobility quirks on slow Mechs, the solution should be more fundamental. Perhaps starting with better offensive quirks.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Requiemking, on 15 July 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

1: It really was.
1a: It actually was, considering the Warhammer has been meta since it's arrival.
2: Again, it was to be expected due to the Marauder being meta for so long.
3: Ah well. I'm not entirely sure if PGI's data collecting covers specific variants, or if it's just based on Chassis alone.
Over all, it seems like PGI is finally making an active move towards changing the meta, albeit, going the wrong way about it.

1a. So by merit of it being "meta" (I.E. a good mech) automatically slates it to be nerfed at some point? Paul is that you?
2. The Marauder wasn't meta...its competent, but its outclassed by a number of heavies.
3. Clearly the latter.

[Deathlike]

Requiemking, on 15 July 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

So, after reviewing the IS Quirk PDF, some of the nerfs and buffs do make some sense.

It only makes sense if you're drunk or insane.

Quote

The Jenner buff was a long time coming, and thank PGI the Oxide got nothing.

This of all the statements make no sense. Agility has NEVER been a problem of the Jenner. It's natural hitboxes are terrible, and since upscaling them, they are even stupidly easy targets to hit. Accel/Decel isn't really the problem.

If you're going to steal any buff from the Oxide, it's actually the structure buffs.

[DarthHias]

I can not feel any pity. If the Heavy crowd gets the Locust nerfed, now they can taste a bit of their own medicine. Warhammer, Marauder, Catapult, those are easily the most played IS Heavies atm, and they are very good too. Have fun.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

DarthHias, on 15 July 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

I can not feel any pity. If the Heavy crowd gets the Locust nerfed, now they can taste a bit of their own medicine. Warhammer, Marauder, Catapult, those are easily the most played IS Heavies atm, and they are very good too. Have fun.

You must have missed the part where I'm an Assault pilot lamenting the nerfs of almost everything here, because a lot don't make any sense.

But ok.

[Y E O N N E]

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

No, I joined October last year.
It is a shame that PGI does not hand out offensive quirks, because the BH2 would be a perfect candidate for it.




Perhaps. Of course in the lore it was piloted by legends who could make them turn nicely.
I would just feel more comfortable if designs were quirked to their design philosophies. That means a slow, cumbersome but extremely well armed BH2. A player should need to overcome this drawback in order to use his massive weaponry. I know this is not working well in MWO at the moment.
But the solution should not be a band-aid like mobility quirks on slow Mechs, the solution should be more fundamental. Perhaps starting with better offensive quirks.

It's a fundamental problem with the game. We have teams of equal size with zero hard-line restraints on composition and with a 'MechLab offering full customization. You cannot have what you seek in this environment, because A.) nobody would ever take the slow 'Mech with lots of guns when they can have a fast one with lots of guns and B.) if you are only relying on offensive quirks to overcome the deficiency, you need such large values on them that it becomes...well...offensive. And that by itself is a band-aid.

This is all compounded by the fact that Clan gear and IS gear are not balanced against each other at all once you remove quirks entirely.

[Requiemking]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 15 July 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

1a. So by merit of it being "meta" (I.E. a good mech) automatically slates it to be nerfed at some point? Paul is that you?
2. The Marauder wasn't meta...its competent, but its outclassed by a number of heavies.
3. Clearly the latter.

Not since the Rescale. Black Knights have vanished, Grasshoppers appear extremely rarely, most of the IS 60 tonners are extinct, the missile using Catapults have been used more,the only Jager I've seen is the trial Jager, and the Marauder has been appearing about as often as Warhammers. If a mech appears often (And by often I mean at least one per match on both sides), It is going to be hit with the nerf bat at some point or another. which is why things like the Black Jack nerf confuse me.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Requiemking, on 15 July 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

Not since the Rescale. Black Knights have vanished, Grasshoppers appear extremely rarely, most of the IS 60 tonners are extinct, the missile using Catapults have been used more,the only Jager I've seen is the trial Jager, and the Marauder has been appearing about as often as Warhammers. If a mech appears often (And by often I mean at least one per match on both sides), It is going to be hit with the nerf bat at some point or another. which is why things like the Black Jack nerf confuse me.

...Well I don't disagree there. It's almost like Paul and Bryan don't play their own game.

[Y E O N N E]

Requiemking, on 15 July 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

Not since the Rescale. Black Knights have vanished, Grasshoppers appear extremely rarely, most of the IS 60 tonners are extinct, the missile using Catapults have been used more,the only Jager I've seen is the trial Jager, and the Marauder has been appearing about as often as Warhammers. If a mech appears often (And by often I mean at least one per match on both sides), It is going to be hit with the nerf bat at some point or another. which is why things like the Black Jack nerf confuse me.

If that's why you expected the MAD to be nerfed, then you are misusing the term "meta." A 'Mech isn't "meta" because it's popular, it's "meta" because it's really good at doing one particular thing to the extent that gameplay evolves around it. The MAD has never, ever been that and, to boot, most are piloted by complete nitwits. If it is getting nerfed for being popular with the players, then it is being nerfed for being iconic and little else.

[Kubernetes]

I must be in the minority in thinking that the Marauder is top tier, but even then, so what? It's inevitable that some mechs are going to be better than other mechs. Some mechs are going to be "top tier" and "best mechs." PGI keeps nerfing the current "best mechs," which just pushes players to shift to different "best mechs"--at least until a new "best mech" appears, and then the cycle begins again.

And I don't give a crap about lore if it means silly things like stock-capped Urbanmechs or a BH2 running a 225. The BH2 is still slow, and the only things that make up for it's awful straight-line speed are the jumpjets and agility quirks.

Again, who the **** was asking for these changes? A lot of these are just out of the blue.

Edited by Kubernetes, 15 July 2016 - 10:44 PM.

[FLG 01]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

if you are only relying on offensive quirks to overcome the deficiency, you need such large values on them that it becomes...well...offensive. And that by itself is a band-aid.

That's assuming there is no middleground between meaningless offensive quirks incapable of offsetting mobility disadvantages and overpowered offensive quirks capable of not only offsetting disadvantages but also invalidating other Mechs, isn't it?
That is a genuine question. (In this climate I feel it might better to point that out... ).

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

This is all compounded by the fact that Clan gear and IS gear are not balanced against each other at all once you remove quirks entirely.

Sure, but that is a whole new can of worms.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

I hear cash is a pretty good nerf-repellent.

Nope, I'm not wasting millions of loonies just to buy PGI. No siree!

[Y E O N N E]

Kubernetes, on 15 July 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:

I must be in the minority in thinking that the Marauder is top tier...

To be fair, the 3R gets used in leagues if there's a duplicates restriction and we need a Warhammer with PPC and UAC/5 but already have one. Next on that list would probably be the CPLT-K2.

And personally, I thought the MAD-5D was competitive-worthy as a brawl-striker type 'Mech...or it used to be, until the KDK came out and they nerfed the MAD-5D's missile cool-down and made it bigger.

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

That's assuming there is no middleground between meaningless offensive quirks incapable of offsetting mobility disadvantages and overpowered offensive quirks capable of not only offsetting disadvantages but also invalidating other Mechs, isn't it?
That is a genuine question. (In this climate I feel it might better to point that out... ).

The BH2 at the moment already has what would be considered powerful offensive quirks even during the Quirks Pass 2 era, the era which also featured extremely over-powered quirks on other chassis like the Quickdraw and Blackjack. When we start bumping energy ranges to 25% and such, we are turning things that are supposed to be mid-range weapons into long range weapons, etc. When you target a 'Mech and look at its load-out, there are certain expectations about its capabilities. When you are getting slugged by massed Inner Sphere medium lasers at 400 meters with little appreciable fall-off, it's not the same weapon any more, is it? That's the problem we're dealing with.

The other issue is that even if your lasers get doubled range or halved duration, there are many things that you need speed to accomplish. You can't re-position well with a slow 'Mech. You can't peak well with a slow 'Mech that has low weapon mounts. To overcome this, the weapons would need to be buffed to 'Mech-invalidating levels. Why do that when we can mitigate it by buffing defensive or mobility instead?

[Walsung]

i found the Marauder great when i was in tier 4 and a liability as often as not when i moved up. way to easy to strip.
the warhammer was pretty good though as good as a timberwolf.

things seemed fairly balanced before with the resize and last quirk pass my clan mechs started feeling stronger with this quirkpass clans get stronger.

lucky for me I suppose my IS mechs are shadowhawk and rifleman which were never blessed with great quirks to start with.

[Y E O N N E]

Rifleman has fantastic quirks, especially the 3N.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2016 - 11:08 PM, said:

Rifleman has fantastic quirks, especially the 3N.

Just wait until our balance overlord hears this!

Edited by Deathlike, 15 July 2016 - 11:12 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 15 July 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

Just wait until our balance overlord hears this!

Not gonna lie, when I saw all that red in the PDF for the Locusts and Blackjacks I immediately looked to make sure the RFL escaped.

And it did! For now...

[Requiemking]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

Not gonna lie, when I saw all that red in the PDF for the Locusts and Blackjacks I immediately looked to make sure the RFL escaped.

And it did! For now...

And even with those fancy quirks, the thing is still rare as hell, much like the Quickdraw (Yet another senseless nerf) and the Dragon.

[dervishx5]

Deathlike, on 15 July 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

Just wait until our balance overlord hears this!

No, shh, they'll hear!

You shut your dirty light-pilot mouth! It's my favorite mech. Sure I don't play anymore but if I ever come back I want my rifle waiting for me.