295 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

As the title says.

We've rescaled the entire Mech line up. But we've limped along on layers of quirks bandaided over layers of quirks, no one honestly has a clue what any mech's relative truly value is. PGIs usual "tweak a handful here, a handful there" approach actually tends to exacerbate this.

And players are so addicted to the quirk-crack, that this often causes bigger concerns than geometry, hardpoints, hitboxes.

So, IMO, this is the time to go cold turkey.

Nuke all the quirks. Take us back to day zero, whatever. Let's get a feel for what each mech can do. Remember when the Tier 1 Metamechs DIDN'T GET ANY QUIRKS AT ALL, or possibly, we even saw the need for a few with some negative quirks, here or there? Before Powercreep turned into the (predicted) Powersprint?

Top tier mechs shouldn't have quirks at all. Everything below should get minor quirks that address otherwise unaddressable deficiencies, or occasionally, add lore/fluff favor (in which case they should be veeeery minor). But one really needs to see them "naked", as it were first, to know really what the new balance of power, post rescale is.

Now, I know this is going to confuse some of you. "How can I argue and be salty about the upcoming quirk changes on some posts, yet be pushing for a total reset here?" It's actually very very simple. In those posts, I am arguing about the MWO game we actually have, NOW, where the top tier mechs are uberquirked, and we are oddly stripping quirks of second tier mechs, instead. This post is about what SHOULD be done.


*Procurator Derek: Yes, I am sure I could have posted this in a different, "appropriate" Section of the Forum. Where it would have 5 views, 1 like, and zero comments. We post here specifically for the "DISCUSSION" part of General Discussion, sir. Just saying!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 July 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 July 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

As the title says.

We've rescaled the entire Mech line up. But we've limped along on layers of quirks bandaided over layers of quirks, no one honestly has a clue what any mech's relative truly value is. PGIs usual "tweak a handful here, a handful there" approach actually tends to exacerbate this.

And players are so addicted to the quirk-crack, that this often causes bigger concerns than geometry, hardpoints, hitboxes.

So, IMO, this is the time to go cold turkey.

Nuke all the quirks. Take us back to day zero, whatever. Let's get a feel for what each mech can do. Remember when the Tier 1 Metamechs DIDN'T GET ANY QUIRKS AT ALL, or possibly, we even saw the need for a few with some negative quirks, here or there? Before Powercreep turned into the (predicted) Powersprint?

Top tier mechs shouldn't have quirks at all. Everything below should get minor quirks that address otherwise unaddressable deficiencies, or occasionally, add lore/fluff favor (in which case they should be veeeery minor). But one really needs to see them "naked", as it were first, to know really what the new balance of power, post rescale is.

Now, I know this is going to confuse some of you. "How can I argue and be salty about the upcoming quirk changes on some posts, yet be pushing for a total reset here?" It's actually very very simple. In those posts, I am arguing about the MWO game we actually have, NOW, where the top tier mechs are uberquirked, and we are oddly stripping quirks of second tier mechs, instead. This post is about what SHOULD be done.

Seconded, but with a small caveat:

Adjust base weapon stats based on the average amount of quirking that has proved necessary for various weapon systems to become viable in play.


Honestly, I could take or leave this condition, but we all know several weapon systems do need improvements, and the solutions have been staring us in the face for quite some time. Dumping the quirks entirely allows the weapons to be buffed directly, without pushing anything beyond the line.

[Stone Wall]

Don't quirk the mechs, fix the weapons. They don't hit hard enough.

[Felbombling]

You beat me to this post, Bishop. I was thinking the other day how, if all the Mechs are now scaled properly against each other, why it shouldn't be possible to do a few things...

• Have a design philosophy in place... Inner Sphere Mechs are rugged like an old '57 Chevy, Clan Mechs are precisely engineered machines, being newer, so are more fragile. Give Inner Sphere Mechs a pool of structure or armour quirks, based on weight. If a Mech needs help for certain sections, like the hump on a Hunchback or the arms on a Phoenix Hawk, that pool is concentrated on those areas. If a Mech is generally balanced, such as an Archer, those beneficial quirks are spread throughout the chassis evenly.
  
• If you are going to grant weapon quirks, base them on the original weapon load-out of the Mech. Bring back a little flavour and lore to the game and make the Mechs a little more distinctive.
  
• Signature weapon quirked locations to add to flavour and lore. If a Warhammer, for example, is going to be granted PPC quirks, associate those quirks with the arm hard-points. I wanna see Warhammers with PPCs in the arms, dammit, and I want PGI to incentivise their placement there in such a way as to make players want to put them there, instead of the torsos.

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

I'd like to definitely see "Vanilla" stats even if just for two weeks, to get a feel for everything "as is."

I'd also be heavily interested in (AFTER the de-quirkening) "Legacy" bonuses where mechs using their stock equipment (Such as PPCs in a Warhammer arm) receive a small bonus. This way there is an actual tradeoff where you can play a stock mech or a mostly stock mech just tweaked a bit, or lose legacy bonuses if you want a "Meta" build. Adding a large laser for example to a Warhammer arm wouldn't make you lose the entire Legacy bonus, but on the other hand retaining a PPC in the arm would give you a nice small +5% quirk as a gentle knod to keeping with the spirit of the mech.

Edited by Xocoyol Zaraoul, 17 July 2016 - 07:47 AM.

[Acehilator]

Sounds good. Problem is Clan vs IS balance for FW. Without quirks, IS is pretty much screwed.

/edit: Oh, and of course, we all know how fast and iterative PGI works. Getting quirks back to an acceptable level would take what? Half a year?

Edited by Acehilator, 17 July 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[Baulven]

Honestly if they bring back the test server that would be the way to go. I like the idea of bringing it back to baseline and then adding (only) to make under performers competitive.

[Mystere]

Hell yeah!

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

Acehilator, on 17 July 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

Sounds good. Problem is Clan vs IS balance for FW. Without quirks, IS is pretty much screwed.

A lot of things would be screwed without quirks, this would just allow us to see the true capabilities of mechs and rebalance from there, adding quirks if needed, or "tweaking" clan balance to bring them in line if needed.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm all for quirks going away. BUT, I think that weapon quirks are fine IF they're only activated by putting specific weapons in specific locations. The Warhammer should have PPC quirks if PPCs are equipped AND they're put in the arms. The rest of the garbage that we have needs to go away.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 17 July 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[Baulven]

Xocoyol Zaraoul, on 17 July 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

A lot of things would be screwed without quirks, this would just allow us to see the true capabilities of mechs and rebalance from there, adding quirks if needed, or "tweaking" clan balance to bring them in line if needed.

Just increase other mechs don't need things. The whole bonuses here minuses there is how we got this **** storm to begin with. You buff in cycles until the performance I on par.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I'm all for this.

But, if you strip off all the quirks that means Clan 'Mechs will be inherently more durable than IS because of cXL ST survivability.

That needs to be addressed.

At this point I think introducing engine crits is the right way to go and that an engine crit system needs to be in place before doing this.

[TercieI]

They're actually pulling them back incrementally. This is good. Tables get flipped too often here, I see no reason to do that again.

[Baulven]

You know what's funny? A lot of people have already stated "Great idea, but you should leave these quirks alone..." which completely defeats the purpose of the remove them all and start from square one.

[Mystere]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 17 July 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'm all for this.

But, if you strip off all the quirks that means Clan 'Mechs will be inherently more durable than IS because of cXL ST survivability.

That needs to be addressed.

At this point I think introducing engine crits is the right way to go and that an engine crit system needs to be in place before doing this.

Here's one way: 10 Clan vs. 12 IS.

Edited by Mystere, 17 July 2016 - 07:47 AM.

[Acehilator]

TercieI, on 17 July 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

They're actually pulling them back incrementally. This is good. Tables get flipped too often here, I see no reason to do that again.

Yeah, but still with the Dartboard of Doom. Case in Point: Blackjack, Quickdraw, severity of Warhammer/Marauder Nerfs. Still totally mindboggling.

[Stone Wall]

Acehilator, on 17 July 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

Sounds good. Problem is Clan vs IS balance for FW. Without quirks, IS is pretty much screwed.

/edit: Oh, and of course, we all know how fast and iterative PGI works. Getting quirks back to an acceptable level would take what? Half a year?

Every MW I have played has had the issue of Clan being better than IS, because that's how it is. Pilots who take a vanilla IS will have to manage that their mech is worse than a Clan mech. If the IS pilot wins, that's just a more satisfying victory.

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

Baulven, on 17 July 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

You know what's funny? A lot of people have already stated "Great idea, but you should leave these quirks alone..." which completely defeats the purpose of the remove them all and start from square one.

I read it as they have quirk ideas after the pass, as this isn't a "permanent" idea to de-quirk everything.

At least, I wrote my suggestion with that intent.

[Monkey Lover]

After seeing how wave one of the quirks worked out I don't think this is the best idea. I don't think the balance we have now is all that bad. I want to see small tweaks every patch.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Mystere, on 17 July 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Here's one way: 10 Clan vs. 12 IS.

Oh, gosh! I'm not going there!