295 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 17 July 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Basically, the point I was trying to make is that the daily perception of what a "crutch" mech is can change on a daily basis, and it basically creates a whack-a-mole type of chase. Whack down one mole and another one will take its place, and thus is the reason that it's really a losing battle to try to "stamp out all the crutches."

Precisely. Thus my statement still holds.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Nope. I'd end up stabling half my mechs, like almost everyone else.

[Deathlike]

I'm not a total fan of quirks (mostly because our balance overlord is incompetent), but do you guys really want to find out how bad many mechs are w/o their quirks?

Phoenix Hawk debuted with quirks - it's going to suck even more. Archers? They were already laughable and further dead. Commandos and Mist Lynx's? lol ok. Awesomes still have quirks, but they'll be forgotten just as well.

Some mechs will survive the such a thing, such as the Arctic Cheetah and many of the existing Clan mechs that have minimal quirks (Timberwolf will recover its status, only indirectly through everything sucking). Black Knights and Grasshoppers that are totally reliant on quirks wouldn't even be a thing.


While you can ask for said unquirkening, just remember that if you can imagine many of the mechs w/o quirks, you're going to cull most of them on the field. The mechs that weren't dependent on the quirks, well, they will generally be the standouts.

This isn't rocket science... it's the lack of foresight in the understanding and application of quirks (whether it be by others or our balance overlord) that causes people to lose sight of the dreadfully obvious... until you get smacked in the face of how badly you were reliant on those quirks. We'll still be back to claiming the Phoenix Hawk being the worst of the Mediums (unless the Vindicator wants to "outshine" it in its terrible state).

Edited by Deathlike, 17 July 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[GrimRiver]

Top tier metamechs don't need quirks because they were/are (GASP!) top tier metamech without or lack thereof quirks before any buffs and even with the new heat scale it won't change too much, they'll be less effective in longer timed battles sure but they'll still be the cream of the crop.

So I say remove ALL quirks from top tier and give it to the crud at the bottom of the bucket that truly need it.

[Lily from animove]

could work, but PGI needs to do this and wait an entire month before jumping on the first whine quirks.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 July 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[3xnihilo]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Seconded, but with a small caveat:

Adjust base weapon stats based on the average amount of quirking that has proved necessary for various weapon systems to become viable in play.


Honestly, I could take or leave this condition, but we all know several weapon systems do need improvements, and the solutions have been staring us in the face for quite some time. Dumping the quirks entirely allows the weapons to be buffed directly, without pushing anything beyond the line.

This, I like this. Go back to zero quirks, fix the broken weapons, and then start balancing from there. Too bad we can't get people on the test servers so we could try it and get things mildly balanced before it headed to the live server.

[Battlemaster56]

I like the idea of removing all quirks and then test out what quirks is needed for each one, I suggest if we do this on the test servers, start with each class every 2-3 weeks so first 2-3 weeks we test out lights mechs and add the necessary quirks, and continue,

If a mech(s) or certain is do considerable better than others they will get little to no quirks, the ones that struggling would have considerable more or better quirks.

This is my 2 cents on ow to approach this

[Acehilator]

Using the Test server would be nice, but I guess there needs to be a really big incentive for the 99% of the playerbase not using the homepage/forum to use it... like handing out those +10% c-bills/xp thingies from the tournament support pack (for later use on the Live server).

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 17 July 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

I'm not a total fan of quirks (mostly because our balance overlord is incompetent), but do you guys really want to find out how bad many mechs are w/o their quirks?

Phoenix Hawk debuted with quirks - it's going to suck even more. Archers? They were already laughable and further dead. Commandos and Mist Lynx's? lol ok. Awesomes still have quirks, but they'll be forgotten just as well.

Some mechs will survive the such a thing, such as the Arctic Cheetah and many of the existing Clan mechs that have minimal quirks (Timberwolf will recover its status, only indirectly through everything sucking). Black Knights and Grasshoppers that are totally reliant on quirks wouldn't even be a thing.


While you can ask for said unquirkening, just remember that if you can imagine many of the mechs w/o quirks, you're going to cull most of them on the field. The mechs that weren't dependent on the quirks, well, they will generally be the standouts.

This isn't rocket science... it's the lack of foresight in the understanding and application of quirks (whether it be by others or our balance overlord) that causes people to lose sight of the dreadfully obvious... until you get smacked in the face of how badly you were reliant on those quirks. We'll still be back to claiming the Phoenix Hawk being the worst of the Mediums (unless the Vindicator wants to "outshine" it in its terrible state).

You do realize I am not saying abolish quirks forever, but to acknowledge have a new baseline, and to use the opportunity to remove the power creep of the last year and requirk based off actual need and unbiased info?

[Grey Ghost]

I think it would be a disaster that would disproportionately affect the performance of Inner Sphere Mechs greater than Clan Mechs in the short run.

I honestly do not think that PGI has balanced Clan vs. IS Tech well enough to work in a Quirk-less environment. How long would players tolerate gameplay like that for 1+ months?

I'm genuinely interested in how it would turn out though, but would it be more harmful or helpful to PGI?

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 July 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

You do realize I am not saying abolish quirks forever, but to acknowledge have a new baseline, and to use the opportunity to remove the power creep of the last year and requirk based off actual need and unbiased info?

That assumes our balance overlord understands what he's quirking.

I'm already telling you what I think of that.

[Sader325]

Counter Proposal:

Step 1) Clean Slate all current quirks removed (Including negative and positive clan quirks).

Step 2) All Innersphere mechs are given a pool of 10 - 20% structure quirks (Value can be decided later) to be placed wherever you want. (I can spread them evenly across the entire mech, or can focus the structure quirks into a specific torso or arm if I want.

Step 3) All IS equivalant of clan weapons introduced (IS ERM / ERS/ etc).

Step 4) All IS equivalant to clan autos introduced (UAC10, UAC20, UAC2)

Step 5) Innersphere ERPPC given the same damage as clan ER PPC with the same exact spread.

Step 6) Innersphere PPC minimum range removed.

Step 7) Innersphere and Clan Machinegun ROF increased by 50%.

Step 8) Revert masteries nerf for all mechs (You nerfed movement and then gave it back via quirks, so what was the point of nerfing it?)

Step 9) Create a distinct difference between IS Single and IS Double heat sinks (Ex: Single Heat sinks = Low capacity High Dissipation / Double Heat sinks = High Capacity Lower dissipation)

Step 10) Clan Mechs allowed to removed fixed heat sinks and jump jets on ALL locked mechs (warhawk, summoner, nova, kitfox, etc).

Step 11) Clan ER Medium and Medium Pulse range unnerfed.

Step 12) Observe game play for a minimum of 1 month, and make adjustments where necessary. ALL BALANCE ADJUSTMENTS MUST BE EXPLAINED IN A FORUM POST BY WHOEVER IS MAKING THE CHANGES WITH DETAILED REASONING FOR WHY A CHANGE IS BEING MADE.

Edited by Sader325, 17 July 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

YES!

I have been calling for elimination of quirks with the re-scale and only putting back those that are absolutely necessary.

In addition, I have proposed that when the new skill tree is introduced that many of the quirks should become part of the expanded skill tree. Add more slots and let the Player's Tech pick the attributes to improve the performance of the player's Mech. That gives another layer to customization and if done correctly it will not result in power creep.
The re-scale, re-quirk and the new skill tree give PGI an opportunity to re-work this game and correct many of the balance issues that currently haunt it.

[Kubernetes]

What is a "crutch player"? A pilot who drives good mechs with good loadouts? "Those guys aren't really better than me; they're just crutch players." "It'll be sweet when quirks are gone because then all the crutch players will suck like me." No, actually they won't.

Regarding quirks, yeah why not go back to zero, at least for a while. I feel like quirks are almost necessary to make certain chassis and variants viable, but we've gone so far with rescales and quirk adjustments that it's hard to see how mechs compare when vanilla. There are a bunch of mechs (Warhammers, Riflemen, etc.) that have never been run in a quirkless environment.

Also, regarding 10 v 12, I don't think they've ever been able to make it work in testing. It doesn't matter how much more powerful Clan mechs are on a 1 to 1 basis, because the numbers win out and 12 IS crushes 10 Clan without fail. I don't even think 12 v 11 works.

[Chuck Jager]

many of the IS quirks became really good when the clan range on erMLAS got pulled into line (as they needed too).

The added duration, structure, accel/twist and shall we not forget the tinfoil hat new mech quirks (not just IS) basically gave some mechs the ability to peek and alpha and win trades exceptionally better than the unquirked ones. Both the Kodiak and Locust were very guilty of this followed by the other hard hit mechs. Even though IS got hit harder, I think PGI's goal is to bring this meta into line (not saying they did it well).

I kinda have gotten used to figuring out what is or is not playable and to what levels in most games, and then prepare for it to change. I also live in the NorthWest US and for us it is like complaining about the 9 months of rain.

[Javenri]

I believe quirks are a good system and allows for great flexibility in terms of balance. If a certain variant becomes too much of a meta or rarely played, PGI can nerf or boost it without having to make changes on a specific weapon or system. Improvements can and will be made but the quirk system is not bad in balancing between factions (and within a facttion as well).

[AmazingOnionMan]

Well, in the last town hall Russ said they were working on a quirkless stock.mode for private games. Get that going and PGI should have all the raw data and player feedback they need to make the jump. Which I hope they do.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

If they are putting in stock mode with no quirks, there will never be a jump. People who don't like quirks, play that. They won't have stock mode no quirk and normal mode no quirk.

[Rhent]

You idea will not work with the current build out system. Mechs with the best hard points will always win. And build diversity would go down very quickly. Removing quirks would force PGI to put in sized hard points to compensate, and frankly I don't see PGI ever doing that.

[Tarl Cabot]

FupDup, on 17 July 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Actually, the "crutch" players would switch to Clan mechs for a while, just like they did before quirks were added.

Hmm, Clans were new at the time though, and only available to those who paid cash for them. I originally had to make an outline because I had posted a few times where my comments did not actually match the timeline.

Quote

17-JUN-2014 Clan Release - pre-order release
19-JUL-2014 Converted all existing IS mechs to new quirk system
05-SEP-2014 Clan/IS weapon changes
04-NOV-2014 IS Weapon Major Quirks pass
09-DEC-2014 1st Quirk Update (Major changes in weapon quirks, esp T-bolt 9S:ERPPC /Dragons /Grid Iron Gauss Rifle additions)
11-DEC-2014 CW

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 17 July 2016 - 12:14 PM.