22 replies to this topic

[Dino Might]

Do you think we will ever see a comprehensive radar/sensor overhaul? I would like to see something that operates like an aircraft radar:

Your sensors scan in a cone that can be adjusted by mechanically or electronically slewing your sensor head. Detection is based on targets cross-section for the particular sensor, aspect, and (depending on sensor) relative speed.

I would like to see the sensors get a much longer range than visual, but the caveat is that you have to sweep with your sensors and be in favorable conditions to achieve that increased range. It would allow us to have much bigger maps, and scouts would have a purpose in finding the enemy to allow for engagements to occur within the 15 minute time span.

If possible, make a suite of sensors that the pilot would have to switch between to adjust settings. Then have a main cockpit screen be the sensor display, and locks would have to be manually entered (contact on radar, slew cursor over top of it, and hit lock button). Then, and only then, do you get the red box in the cockpit window and broadcast the target info to your team.

Rather than arena deathmatch, we'd have maneuver warfare, with some significant tactical decisions to be made, starting in the mechlab.

[Mystere]

Source Mystic, on 18 July 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

The players want complex creative innovative dynamics

Based on the outcry to the Info Warfare tests on the PTS, I have my doubts.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mystere, on 18 July 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Based on the outcry to the Info Warfare tests on the PTS, I have my doubts.

Laser lock was just a dumb idea. The rest would have been great with better numbers.

[Mystere]

Kaeb Odellas, on 18 July 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

Laser lock was just a dumb idea. The rest would have been great with better numbers.

Ah! But many wanted the entire thing junked just because of 1 thing!!!

[nehebkau]

Dino Might, on 18 July 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Do you think we will ever see a comprehensive radar/sensor overhaul? I would like to see something that operates like an aircraft radar:

Your sensors scan in a cone that can be adjusted by mechanically or electronically slewing your sensor head. Detection is based on targets cross-section for the particular sensor, aspect, and (depending on sensor) relative speed.

I would like to see the sensors get a much longer range than visual, but the caveat is that you have to sweep with your sensors and be in favorable conditions to achieve that increased range. It would allow us to have much bigger maps, and scouts would have a purpose in finding the enemy to allow for engagements to occur within the 15 minute time span.

If possible, make a suite of sensors that the pilot would have to switch between to adjust settings. Then have a main cockpit screen be the sensor display, and locks would have to be manually entered (contact on radar, slew cursor over top of it, and hit lock button). Then, and only then, do you get the red box in the cockpit window and broadcast the target info to your team.

Rather than arena deathmatch, we'd have maneuver warfare, with some significant tactical decisions to be made, starting in the mechlab.

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On the serious side, I suspect that type of thing might be too difficult to implement on top of what they already have in the game. None the less, a more *realistic* sensor system has been proposed multiple times as well as a system that adheres more to BT rules. Good idea and good luck

Edited by nehebkau, 18 July 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I don't think it will ever happen, because PGI is afraid to make this game more complex. They think it will drive away players.

Also, there's a disturbing number of players who believe that making information warfare more complex (i.e. giving players different degrees of information based on teamwork, scouting, individual mech abilities, skill trees, etc) is actually "war on information" and "taking our information away". People get really upset when seismic sensors are nerfed, when the minimap has less information, etc.

Some people just want their Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf to have just as good sensors as light mechs, be just as hard to detect, while having infinitely better cockpits (scouting in a Locust is like scouting while wearing a medieval pigface helmet) and being able to instantly detect the exact angle multiple mechs behind cover are facing via indirect spotting. And on top of that, they don't want trees or fog! Just massive firepower, incredible speed, total information and perfect weather conditions, every time.

That crowd is going to get super pissed when PGI implements information warfare, even without the ideas you're suggesting.

[DAYLEET]

The "pros" can't have a deep and engaging game. Each mech should have their own cross-section and different range they can be locked depending of the radar your mech is sporting. But that goes against the twitch AlphaStrike Warrior some people want this game to be.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Based on the outcry to the Info Warfare tests on the PTS, I have my doubts.

Poison pilled entirely because of the "ghost laser damage" thing.

We know you could do the whole sensor detection range more/less thing by Mech type thanks to that patch (and it's in the ECM code, of course.)

Edited by Brain Cancer, 18 July 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[Dino Might]

Even better, you can use the 3-D hitbox models and calculate the radar cross section (RCS) relative to other mechs, because you're constantly doing a similar thing for hit calculations anyways. Then use the RCS and sensor strength of the other mech to determine whether he can see you or not on that particular sensor. I know it would be a bear of a project, but the fundamental tools needed are already in the engine and used for other purposes. It would just need some creative design.

I'm not asking for a full sim radar/sensor system like in DCS. Just a rudimentary suite that requires some active user input for detecting the baddies would be a lot more immersive.

Once the fight is in close, it wouldn't really matter much. I would imagine them implementing the normal lock mechanic as a "close combat mode," where you lock the target on the reticle with a single key press if within some fixed distance (300m?).

The cons to my idea are:

-Maps need to be about 10 times the current size
-Team starts need to be randomized
-Some games would end up with very little engagement if there is no scouting and sensor management.
-The Mech-Quake crowd would probably leave because the action doesn't start right from the dropship (although, I would envision with random drops, have a possibility of this happening - you get dropped within 500m of the other team and start in "oh s*** mode."

The Pros:
-You finally have some semblance of info warfare
-Can customize each mech RCS and sensor suite capabilities to give the mechs more diversity without powercreeping
-Give pilots more to do than just point and click
-Add additional sensors/modes as modules. Start with simple single target track, and then allow for upgrades/sidegrades to do track while scan with increasing numbers of targets.
-Bring LRMs back into the game by improving LRM missile characteristics but requiring a more complicated target tracking system for the pilot (would be great balancing mechanic and increase the skill cap, but make them much more capable)
-Would give a reason to have those cockpit monitors

[DAYLEET]

Dino Might, on 18 July 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Even better, you can use the 3-D hitbox models and calculate the radar cross section (RCS) relative to other mechs, because you're constantly doing a similar thing for hit calculations anyways. Then use the RCS and sensor strength of the other mech to determine whether he can see you or not on that particular sensor. I know it would be a bear of a project, but the fundamental tools needed are already in the engine and used for other purposes. It would just need some creative design.

I'm not asking for a full sim radar/sensor system like in DCS. Just a rudimentary suite that requires some active user input for detecting the baddies would be a lot more immersive.

Once the fight is in close, it wouldn't really matter much. I would imagine them implementing the normal lock mechanic as a "close combat mode," where you lock the target on the reticle with a single key press if within some fixed distance (300m?).

The cons to my idea are:

-Maps need to be about 10 times the current size
-Team starts need to be randomized
-Some games would end up with very little engagement if there is no scouting and sensor management.
-The Mech-Quake crowd would probably leave because the action doesn't start right from the dropship (although, I would envision with random drops, have a possibility of this happening - you get dropped within 500m of the other team and start in "oh s*** mode."

The Pros:
-You finally have some semblance of info warfare
-Can customize each mech RCS and sensor suite capabilities to give the mechs more diversity without powercreeping
-Give pilots more to do than just point and click
-Add additional sensors/modes as modules. Start with simple single target track, and then allow for upgrades/sidegrades to do track while scan with increasing numbers of targets.
-Bring LRMs back into the game by improving LRM missile characteristics but requiring a more complicated target tracking system for the pilot (would be great balancing mechanic and increase the skill cap, but make them much more capable)
-Would give a reason to have those cockpit monitors

I like this far more than your first post. Because managing radar like an aircraft dont make much sense at ground level with trees/buildings/hills and would add a difficulty level without really adding much imo. But the size of your mech and the strength of your radar should both influence when; you can detect a mech, lock on him to fire stand off weapons and get a harder lock for info like loadout and integrity. From there you can add more to the game without increasing difficulty like, info sharing, lock sharing, soft convergence at long range and what not.

nehebkau, on 18 July 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

Why they went e-sport, I don't know because there is more money to be made bilking people out of dollar transactions in a mmo-esque world and more fun to be had by players.

One requires a lot of work and the other only need management. Im not following the tournament but last i read about it the managing left a lot to be desired.

Edited by DAYLEET, 18 July 2016 - 02:02 PM.

[nehebkau]

I am going to come off as some sort of jaded **** -- sorry in advance for that but...

PGI has had 1,000,000 suggestions for making a deeper, more immersive and rewarding game since they first pushed it out and have ignored almost all of them and forged ahead with their own ideas and their own direction. Yes, PGI has said they consulted players -- just that the players they consulted were a small group of people who have an agenda that is very different from those of us who want something other than a yo-yo-twitch shooter in robots. PGI management has a vision and goal for the game and it is NOT in the direction of some great galactic BT simulation. it was an e-sports vs. MMO-BT simulator decision and e-sport won.

Why they went e-sport, I don't know because there is more money to be made bilking people out of dollar transactions in a mmo-esque world and more fun to be had by players.

[Metus regem]

Dino Might, on 18 July 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Even better, you can use the 3-D hitbox models and calculate the radar cross section (RCS) relative to other mechs, because you're constantly doing a similar thing for hit calculations anyways. Then use the RCS and sensor strength of the other mech to determine whether he can see you or not on that particular sensor. I know it would be a bear of a project, but the fundamental tools needed are already in the engine and used for other purposes. It would just need some creative design.

I'm not asking for a full sim radar/sensor system like in DCS. Just a rudimentary suite that requires some active user input for detecting the baddies would be a lot more immersive.

Once the fight is in close, it wouldn't really matter much. I would imagine them implementing the normal lock mechanic as a "close combat mode," where you lock the target on the reticle with a single key press if within some fixed distance (300m?).

The cons to my idea are:

-Maps need to be about 10 times the current size
-Team starts need to be randomized
-Some games would end up with very little engagement if there is no scouting and sensor management.
-The Mech-Quake crowd would probably leave because the action doesn't start right from the dropship (although, I would envision with random drops, have a possibility of this happening - you get dropped within 500m of the other team and start in "oh s*** mode."

The Pros:
-You finally have some semblance of info warfare
-Can customize each mech RCS and sensor suite capabilities to give the mechs more diversity without powercreeping
-Give pilots more to do than just point and click
-Add additional sensors/modes as modules. Start with simple single target track, and then allow for upgrades/sidegrades to do track while scan with increasing numbers of targets.
-Bring LRMs back into the game by improving LRM missile characteristics but requiring a more complicated target tracking system for the pilot (would be great balancing mechanic and increase the skill cap, but make them much more capable)
-Would give a reason to have those cockpit monitors

I would take it one step further, and give FF armour a RCS reduction over standard armour, thus giving a reason to use it (beyond weight minor weight savings), even if it eats 14 slots for IS mechs. Give mechs with a Command console the ability to target and track upto a lance worth of targets, and disseminate that information to their lance, this could be the first step towards real C3 systems.

[Coolant]

I want the passive radar that was in MW4:Mercs...lessens your own radar distance, but also lessens the distance an enemy mech can detect you

[Dino Might]

Coolant, on 18 July 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

I want the passive radar that was in MW4:Mercs...lessens your own radar distance, but also lessens the distance an enemy mech can detect you

Better yet, add a radar warning receiver, so you get a bearing on enemies painting you with radar, but no range or idea of exactly where they are. Use passive sensors to not show up on enemy RWR.

There, we now have use for two screens in the cockpit.

DAYLEET, on 18 July 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

I like this far more than your first post. Because managing radar like an aircraft dont make much sense at ground level with trees/buildings/hills and would add a difficulty level without really adding much imo. But the size of your mech and the strength of your radar should both influence when; you can detect a mech, lock on him to fire stand off weapons and get a harder lock for info like loadout and integrity. From there you can add more to the game without increasing difficulty like, info sharing, lock sharing, soft convergence at long range and what not.



One requires a lot of work and the other only need management. Im not following the tournament but last i read about it the managing left a lot to be desired.

At ground level, you'd only need to worry about azimuth slew, but you should be able to scan wide/narrow. With wide, you don't need to worry about slew, but your range is decreased. With narrow, you slew where your beam is pointing and only see in that cone, but you get a better range. I think it would be pretty interesting to have to manage it while in the beyond visual range environment. Give scouts something to do other than move.

[DAYLEET]

Dino Might, on 18 July 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

At ground level, you'd only need to worry about azimuth slew, but you should be able to scan wide/narrow. With wide, you don't need to worry about slew, but your range is decreased. With narrow, you slew where your beam is pointing and only see in that cone, but you get a better range. I think it would be pretty interesting to have to manage it while in the beyond visual range environment. Give scouts something to do other than move.

and i dont think that adds anything good to the game. An F14 needs his lock to hit the enemy, a scout dont, it would only only be a toggle between "see far" and "dont see far" and for what purpose? I dont think that adds anything, get incoming you switch to short range, dont and switch long range.

The other changes already add range to detection based on RCS and possibly the strenght of radar and ecm could play a role, thats enough for me. Id love you get an RCS screen that flashes the direction that you are being locked.

[Dino Might]

I see your point. I'm not married to the idea, but I would personally like it. But we can agree that dynamic radar with RCS affecting detectability as well as an RWR panel would be pretty great. PGI, ya hear us? Let's put it in the game!

[Lyoto Machida]

Love the many ideas in this thread, like the hundreds that have been passed over and forgotten but it will probably never happen. We can't even get switchable ammo types in this game still...

[Dino Might]

Bumpity. Let's do this, PGI.

Anyone else have more input on sensor mechanics? Maybe if we make the thread 100 pages, PGI will listen? It seems to be the way to do things here.

[Brain Cancer]

Even simple detection radius would matter.

WoWs, a destroyer often gets wrecked if it's seen, but it's dangerous if it knows to stay out of sight. A light might well be the same, especially since a smaller sensor profile + high speed can mean a safer entry into engagement range.

Of course, you have to chuck ECM as it is in the toilet for that, as ECM beats just about everything in terms of nolockz.

[Dino Might]

Brain Cancer, on 18 July 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

Even simple detection radius would matter.

WoWs, a destroyer often gets wrecked if it's seen, but it's dangerous if it knows to stay out of sight. A light might well be the same, especially since a smaller sensor profile + high speed can mean a safer entry into engagement range.

Of course, you have to chuck ECM as it is in the toilet for that, as ECM beats just about everything in terms of nolockz.

Still, visual spotting is way too easy. If the mechs camo mattered, and everything wasn't rendered in such great contrast, it would be much better to use a simple detection radius system. I don't like in WoWs how an enemy is simply not rendered unless detected. I want a good camouflage system as well as a more complex sensor system. Unfortunately, you'll have people that mess with the textures to get everything into ultra-contrast mode, but I don't care about the 0.1% cheating to gain the unfair advantage. You hardly ever run into those types anyways. When you do, it may be a roflstomp, but they are no reason to undermine good features in a game.