314 replies to this topic

[Mekwarrior]

They are moving vases. Large ones.

Edited by Mekwarrior, 20 July 2016 - 07:58 PM.

[L3mming2]

JinSR, on 20 July 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

I completely disagree. I wrote this in another post but I guess ill repeat it here.


Whut? Do people think that making mechs function this way in the game is actually healthy? Light mechs just have to play smarter now, less yolo and more sneaky.

yes so sneaky to bad a red dorito pops up as soon as you pop out 600m away.. and ofc sismic wall hack ...

[Weeny Machine]

Leeroy stuff in lights? This works maybe in T5 and maybe in T4. The only case where a Leeroy may have been viable was in an ACH right after its release with its broken hitboxes and super structure quirks. Now...? Seriously?

Rinkata Kimiku, on 20 July 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

It is not a nerf. Lights placed inline with other mechs, and no lagshield anymore.
While piloting light mech you have to play smart now. No more Leeeroy stuff.

5 games played since the rescale in a light. Enough said...

Edited by Bush Hopper, 21 July 2016 - 01:09 AM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Darian DelFord, on 20 July 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Checks stats..... hmmmm

The problem is the rescale has brought to fruition the vulnerability of lights even more by making them bigger. We simply can not take the hits the assaults........ BUT we are also held to the SAME standard as heavies and assaults when it comes to match score... C-bills and XP

It is SIMPLE for a heavy or an assault to pull off a 500+ damage game.... but a light pilot has to work his arse off for it. This is a major part of the imbalance

When you see a Jenner do 500+ points of damage in a game.... he was working his butt of to get it.... when you see a Kodiak do it... he double tapped 6 times. This is the inherent problem with balance in this game.

Add to the problem that most maps coming out now are sniping maps... and there is really NO way for lights to continuously shine.

....

This, this pretty much sums it up. A light mech has much less health than anything else in the game, pilots in heavier mechs tend to be able to trade armor for damage, like the Kodiak 3 even with the cUAC10 adjustments can take incoming fire and dish out return fire trading some armor for usually horribly crippling another. Lights don't have that luxury and since this isn't tabletop where it gets harder to hit a faster moving target (well it was that way when hit reg was borked and firestarters were the bane of all life), so they need either to A have a modifier due to being a light mech for their income, xp, and match score for PSR, or they need assistance in being able to do their job as nimble glass cannons that can not afford to have a triangle over their head at too far of a range. Or both would work, and probably be for the best to make lights a high skill floor and very high skill ceiling class of mechs, while Heavies have practically no skill floor and a moderate skill cap.

[Mekwarrior]

Lights are so fragile and easy to hit you don't even have to aim very well, I just played a game as an atlas and a light stopped for a second, I didn't really even aim properly, a quick blast with 2 large lasers and it just exploded. I didn't even get to see the damage level because it was destroyed so quickly but it was fairly early in the game still.

[Jables McBarty]

Rinkata Kimiku, on 20 July 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

All my friends who pilot heavies and assaults hates to pilot lights and even mediums all the time. Patches changed nothing here.

10-15% now in game lights (same digits as before last two patches). I was checking this digits for 5 minutes. Idk where you got 2 and 4%.
And remember that some amount of players still focusing on leveling their Vipers.

Lights never was as popular as heavies and assaults.
Only new light mechs were make some changes, because players leveling them.

Can't say I've seen 2%, but 4%, 6%, 9%...see those all the time for Light queue on NA. Always the lowest queue.

Rinkata Kimiku, on 20 July 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

I always seeing 1 to 3 lights per match. Lights are not popular because of low firepower. Those jenners and hugins before were an exceptions, that's why everyone bought them, and forgot about other lights. And before them there were tons of unkillable firestarters. And before them there were tons of ravens with large lazorz. And before them there were crazy unkillable spiders. All of this examples are nice examples of bad balance and game issues. All of them are fixed now. You should be happy, but nooooo, you want this bugs back.

I wasn't around during the "lag-shield" days of yore, but I notice that salty fatties always get upset when they can't kills lights. As though the game is somehow "balanced" when only fatties are alive at the end of the game.

It almost feels like...they want lights to be...cannon fodder?

[operatorZ]

MischiefSC, on 20 July 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Same effort, same reward.

MischiefSC, on 20 July 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

If someone says lights should be as good, pay as well for the exact same effort or the like.... well, they suck and shouldn't be taken seriously.

ok, you convinced me

[Kirkland Langue]

Too bad lights can't carry multiple UAVs. While I want them to deal less damage and to be less tanky (expecially when you consider the damage mitigation that's created by Jump Jetting while moving fast) - I do believe that lights as scouts is legit, and one way to handle that would be to allow them to carry multiple UAVs.

[Darian DelFord]

Kirkland Langue, on 21 July 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

Too bad lights can't carry multiple UAVs. While I want them to deal less damage and to be less tanky (expecially when you consider the damage mitigation that's created by Jump Jetting while moving fast) - I do believe that lights as scouts is legit, and one way to handle that would be to allow them to carry multiple UAVs.

This was really the ONLY reason to take the Jenner K over the D and F..... it had an extra mod slot... once they "normalized" the Jenner's mod slots it lost it. There is absolutely NO reason to own a Jenner K currently.

[Jables McBarty]

Queen of England, on 20 July 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

Its pretty simple:

Heavy mech gets 3 kills, 750 damage: good game, bro!

Light mech gets 3 kills, 750 damage: pgi plz nerf!

This is often followed up by something about how the job of light mechs is to look at enemy mechs and tell the real mechs about it. This is euphemistically called "role warfare". People have yet to explain how looking at enemy mechs is to be made as interesting as shooting at them.

This.

operatorZ, on 19 July 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Yes I realize the difference is less between heavies and assaults compared to lights and mediums, that's why lights are "hard mode". The game definitely doesn't cater to them. But that's how the system, at its very base, is setup, by tonnage. A 15 ton difference between 75 tons and 90 tons is 17% a 15 ton difference between 30 and 45 is 34%,double, and you see that. The game is setup on tonnage, to truly balance that for combat solely, MWO would have to revamp the entire system. They are not doing that.

Except the tonnage system as introduced in FW and GQ were used as fixes to remedy the fact that a heavier dropdeck was just plain better than a light-weight one. But go back to Russ's Four Pillars talk and he talks about rock/paper/scissors. So really, any tonnage dropdeck should be viable, provided it brings a nice mix of classes.

I don't know what you mean by "revamp the entire system" because it's pretty clear what light pilots want. Stop nerfing our movement profiles, give us some buffs to compensate for rescale nerf, and give us better agility, either by nerfing fatty agility or buffing our own.

Sure there are other, more complex ways to fix the class--role warfare, or convergence--but we have quirks, and quirks can do a lot to put the class in a good place.

Oh, and we also want to stop the fatty QQ, since that's the biggest problem of all. But in order to do that...I guess we'd have to stop playing.

Bishop Steiner, on 19 July 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Mediums spent all of Closed Beta and most of Open Beta as the Red Headed Stepchild Class. They started getting some agility Buffs.... but then so did everything else. Since Launch, things have gotten a lot more muddled, that's for certain.

But I know even when Mediums were abject crap compared to everything, I never whined about it like some are doing over Lights (despite being one of the foremost "champions" or promoters of the Centurion chassis at the time, aka a Masochist). Lights need some Buffs. No denying (well, some do, a few might not, thank you PGI for giving us such a broken bandaid covered baseline to work from!) it. But I'd rather have it buffs based off of the current Scale, than the class surviving because of egregious scaling, broken mechanics, etc, that made for a ridiculous (even by MWOs uneven standard) of Good/Bad across the line up.

I get salty on the forums about lights getting nerfed because I see so much fatty salt about how they need to be nerfed. Fatties don't whine about the few mediums kicking their asses because they are all "real 'mechs" designed to "do damage." But when a light does anything other than press R, it's game-breaking.

Anyway, that's why I get on the forums to stand up for lights, because there is so much QQ that is rooted in this concept of role warfare that just doesn't exist.

EDIT: And because the fatty QQ tends to result in very real nerfs, hence it needs to be countered.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 21 July 2016 - 10:00 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jables McBarty, on 21 July 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

This.



Except the tonnage system as introduced in FW and GQ were used as fixes to remedy the fact that a heavier dropdeck was just plain better than a light-weight one. But go back to Russ's Four Pillars talk and he talks about rock/paper/scissors. So really, any tonnage dropdeck should be viable, provided it brings a nice mix of classes.

I don't know what you mean by "revamp the entire system" because it's pretty clear what light pilots want. Stop nerfing our movement profiles, give us some buffs to compensate for rescale nerf, and give us better agility, either by nerfing fatty agility or buffing our own.

Sure there are other, more complex ways to fix the class--role warfare, or convergence--but we have quirks, and quirks can do a lot to put the class in a good place.

Oh, and we also want to stop the fatty QQ, since that's the biggest problem of all. But in order to do that...I guess we'd have to stop playing.



I get salty on the forums about lights getting nerfed because I see so much fatty salt about how they need to be nerfed. Fatties don't whine about the few mediums kicking their asses because they are all "real 'mechs" designed to "do damage." But when a light does anything other than press R, it's game-breaking.

Anyway, that's why I get on the forums to stand up for lights, because there is so much QQ that is rooted in this concept of role warfare that just doesn't exist.

EDIT: And because the fatty QQ tends to result in very real nerfs, hence it needs to be countered.

Interested to know when Centurions became "fatties".... talk about taking fat shaming to an extreme....

[Jables McBarty]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 July 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

Interested to know when Centurions became "fatties".

Didn't mean to imply that meds are fatties. Just conjecturing that fatty (heavy/assault) pilots tend to think of Mediums as "also real mechs" and so there is less QQ from them when a medium touches them wrong.

Quote

... talk about taking fat shaming to an extreme....

Lol, fair enough.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jables McBarty, on 21 July 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Didn't mean to imply that meds are fatties. Just conjecturing that fatty (heavy/assault) pilots tend to think of Mediums as "also real mechs" and so there is less QQ from them when a medium touches them wrong.



Lol, fair enough.

well in fairness Mediums have never had the benefits of egregiously broken scale and lagshield (intermittent or not) that have been more pronounced in Lights over the years. You don't see videos of Centurions and Trebuchets running straight through 6-8 enemy players and escaping untouched.....

So whether "fair" or not... perhaps they feel that when a Medium does it, they've usually earned it, whereas it's little less cut and dried what is skill and what is borked mechanics in a Light, traditionally?

Though I have had more than one DWF jock (even pre agility nerf) cry and QQ and call me a cheater and a coward for back stabbing their precious "immortal" Assault Mech with my Hunchback....

So maybe Fatties are driven my a bunch of big babies? *shrug*

[Weeny Machine]

Queen of England, on 20 July 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

Its pretty simple:

Heavy mech gets 3 kills, 750 damage: good game, bro!

Light mech gets 3 kills, 750 damage: pgi plz nerf!

This is often followed up by something about how the job of light mechs is to look at enemy mechs and tell the real mechs about it. This is euphemistically called "role warfare". People have yet to explain how looking at enemy mechs is to be made as interesting as shooting at them.

That sums it up perfectly.

My theory: it has something to do with a very insecure epeen

[operatorZ]

Jables McBarty, on 21 July 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Except the tonnage system as introduced in FW and GQ were used as fixes to remedy the fact that a heavier dropdeck was just plain better than a light-weight one. But go back to Russ's Four Pillars talk and he talks about rock/paper/scissors. So really, any tonnage dropdeck should be viable, provided it brings a nice mix of classes.

I don't know what you mean by "revamp the entire system" because it's pretty clear what light pilots want. Stop nerfing our movement profiles, give us some buffs to compensate for rescale nerf, and give us better agility, either by nerfing fatty agility or buffing our own.

Sure there are other, more complex ways to fix the class--role warfare, or convergence--but we have quirks, and quirks can do a lot to put the class in a good place.

Oh, and we also want to stop the fatty QQ, since that's the biggest problem of all. But in order to do that...I guess we'd have to stop playing.

First thing, forget what Russ says. It's not reality.

By revamp the whole system I mean they would have to change the underlying premise of the entire weapons, weight, armor and engine relationship. As it stands lighter means less armor, less weapons. These quirks are all about giving mechs more of something. Structure buffs give a mech more armour essentially, weapon buffs essentially give a mech more weapons. But the whole system is locked into a weight = more dynamic. Many people feel that lights are asking to be quirked to levels where they compete on a similar damage and kill level as other mechs. The problem is to do that would make lights way OP because they are in fact smaller and faster.

Other games such as WOT and WOW have these kind of dynamics and the very same arguments go on in thier forums. The exact same arguments.

This particular argument has been going on since I joined, the exact argument, even the same people arguing.

Do I agree that light mechs are subpar for most players ability to deal similar damage as a heavy? Yes, Hell Yes.

But it's beyond ridiculous for people piloting a smaller, lighter, less weapons mech to expect to achieve similar damage stats to a heavy. It's not how the game is set up. The very premise of the entire franchise is based on heavier = more.

I have no problem with bonusing light payouts for scores that are above average for their class, PGI should do this. A light that gets 250 damage a game should be treated like a heavy that gets 400 damage score wise. I see no reason not to do this.

If lights as a class where to be made as combat viable as other mechs they would have to be a similar size as heavies to account for their current advantage. They would either have to sacrifice speed or firepower, otherwise that would be an advantage. Then give all mechs the same hit points with the only trade offs being speed and firepower. This in no way sounds like a game I want to play, because now it's essentially COD with robots.

In essence the changes that could be made "in system" would make lights very much like mediums. So why have different classes at all.

Have lights ever been balanced? Please somebody tell me a time or a change that would make them balanced? and what balance are we going for? Damage? Points? C bills? Kills? Over the last 2 years many changes have occurred to balance that effects lights and even after all that the same complaints arise. the reason is that you can't balance something that at its very core is an unbalanced system.

I'm tired of this endless griping on both sides. All I can say is if lights aren't fun for you....stop playing them. Because expecting lights to be as combat viable, on average, as heavier mechs is fool's errand. You are arguing against the very game mechanics. It's not happening.

I don't play lights hardly at all, they are not fun to me, they take wayyyy more concentration than I am willing to put forward for this game. They are harder than heavies. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to voice my opinion? I am sure I will hear just that.

I don't have a problem with lights, they kill me I kill them, but I am sure I will be written off as just a "fatty" pilot.

[Deathlike]

operatorZ, on 21 July 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

First thing, forget what Russ says. It's not reality.

This is about the only thing I would agree with.

[Darian DelFord]

Remembers a time when the Hunchback ruled the game and not even the mighty glowy eyed Atlas could stand in its way.

[Baulven]

Bush Hopper, on 21 July 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

That sums it up perfectly.

My theory: it has something to do with a very insecure epeen

Everyone should know that their epeen should be secured in a full, upright position.

[MischiefSC]

operatorZ, on 21 July 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

ok, you convinced me

You know what I meant

[C E Dwyer]

Queen of England, on 20 July 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

Its pretty simple:

Heavy mech gets 3 kills, 750 damage: good game, bro!

Light mech gets 3 kills, 750 damage: pgi plz nerf!

This is often followed up by something about how the job of light mechs is to look at enemy mechs and tell the real mechs about it. This is euphemistically called "role warfare". People have yet to explain how looking at enemy mechs is to be made as interesting as shooting at them.

Or how you get C-bills and X.P to master that light mech, with the current system.