20 replies to this topic

[Malachy Karrde]

So, I've been doing an experiment. I have one mech set up with pinpoint ballistics and an identical one set up with spread fire ballistics (uac 10 and lbx 10s respectively. I've played about 10 matches with each and don't see any difference between match scores, component destroyed, kmdd per match, or number of kills. I know it's circumstantial, but I wonder whether the meta argument against spread fire weapons is as bad as they make out. Discuss.

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

Well zero kills equals zero kills, so....

Edited by Xocoyol Zaraoul, 18 July 2016 - 08:11 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

A.) UACs also spread

B.) LB-X are fine when used in the appropriate range bracket

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 July 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

A.) UACs also spread

B.) LB-X are fine when used in the appropriate range bracket

Yeah I gotta say that comparing a 4-shell with a 10 shell isn't the greatest test.

Perhaps using a normal AC10 instead of an ultra would be better for testing.

[FupDup]

If we assume that all other variables are equal, such as range or tonnage, then it is always better to have more pinpoint damage.

The reason that spread damage weapons work in many cases is because not all variables are equal. For example, lasers have very high alpha strike damage per ton, with the 1-ton Medium Laser matching the alpha of the 8-ton (10 tons with ammo) AC/5. SRMs also deal heavy spread damage. Clan Ultras fire faster than IS standard ACs and are lighter/smaller. Etc.

[Wintersdark]

Malachy Karrde, on 18 July 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

So, I've been doing an experiment. I have one mech set up with pinpoint ballistics and an identical one set up with spread fire ballistics (uac 10 and lbx 10s respectively. I've played about 10 matches with each and don't see any difference between match scores, component destroyed, kmdd per match, or number of kills. I know it's circumstantial, but I wonder whether the meta argument against spread fire weapons is as bad as they make out. Discuss.

If you're an atrociously bad shot, maybe.

At any range over 100m, the UAC10 will kill faster, and with less ammo used, than the LBX10.


The UAC10 pushes substantially higher DPS (even counting jams). The LBX10 does less DPS even if the UAC10 isn't doubletapping.

Edit: They reduced the cooldown on the LBX autocannons to match the UAC cooldowns, at least according to Smurfy. Thus, they have the same "on paper" DPS when the UAC isn't doubletapping.

Edited by Wintersdark, 18 July 2016 - 08:26 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Xocoyol Zaraoul, on 18 July 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

Yeah I gotta say that comparing a 4-shell with a 10 shell isn't the greatest test.

Perhaps using a normal AC10 instead of an ultra would be better for testing.

3 shells actually.

[Wintersdark]

Xocoyol Zaraoul, on 18 July 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

Yeah I gotta say that comparing a 4-shell with a 10 shell isn't the greatest test.

Perhaps using a normal AC10 instead of an ultra would be better for testing.

The LBX vs. UAC is indeed a lot closer than the IS comparison. In the IS case, there's many other factors (regular AC10's are WAY better at destroying components, etc). Those factors don't apply Clan side.

On the other hand, the Clan LBX doesn't have a weight advantage vs. the UAC, and is actually larger.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I wouldn't really consider the UAC10 to be pin point.

[Wintersdark]

Rouken Vordermark, on 18 July 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

I wouldn't really consider the UAC10 to be pin point.

It is pinpoint, it isn't front loaded.

Lasers are also pinpoint, for the same reasons.

A UAC10 lands shells where you aim them. An LBX spreads no matter how good a shot you are.

The worse of a shot you are, the closer they become however.


Clan side (where we're talking) it's closer, though, and the LBX does have one significant advantage: It can snapshot. Though UAC10's burst is basically like a SPL, hardly slow.

[Malachy Karrde]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 July 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

A.) UACs also spread

B.) LB-X are fine when used in the appropriate range bracket

A. Not enough to hit two different components with 1 tap least I've never seen it happen.

B. My engagement envelope is around 300 to 600 meters on average. That's supposed to be outside the sweet spot for lbx. I did notice more spread damage at extreme range but 4 of them were just as deadly as 4 uac. I made sure to aim center torso as much as possible. Even at 400 meters, most of the Lbx burst seemed to hit center mass. Going off the paper doll graphic here.


I'm starting to believe that unless it's surgical conditions where all variables are controlled that it doesn't matter what weapon you use as long as you use it competently.

Edited by Malachy Karrde, 18 July 2016 - 08:29 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Hey, when did they adjust the LBX cooldowns to match the UAC cooldowns? Just noticed that changed; nice! About freaking time.

Malachy Karrde, on 18 July 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

B. My engagement envelope is around 300 to 600 meters on average. That's supposed to be outside the sweet spot for lbx. I did notice more spread damage at extreme rang but 4 of them were just as deadly as 4 uac

How?

4xUAC10 pushes 80 damage in about half a second, and can put all that into one component at 500m.

4xLBX10 pushes 40 damage, and at 500m is spreading that all over a mech - to every hitbox, even on a large mech.

In what world is that equal?

[Malachy Karrde]

Wintersdark, on 18 July 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

Hey, when did they adjust the LBX cooldowns to match the UAC cooldowns? Just noticed that changed; nice! About freaking time.



How?

4xUAC10 pushes 80 damage in about half a second, and can put all that into one component at 500m.

4xLBX10 pushes 40 damage, and at 500m is spreading that all over a mech - to every hitbox, even on a large mech.

In what world is that equal?

At 500 meters the lbx will mainly hit chest and side torso. Takes two to three shots to core center mass. Still takes 2 to three shots with uac, but ghost heat is a lot worse ( probably won't be able to after tomorrow's patch) therefore you won't be able to guarantee all that uac damage goes into one component. Also if you read my op, I never said they were identical weapons, I said that I got similar results with both setups over an equal number of matches. I also said that sample size was not as ideal as it could be, but my preliminary results was that I personally didn't have any noticeable deficiency using spred fire weapons compared to pinpoint.

I am sure that pinpoint weapons may perform better if a) the target stands still, you are standing still, c) it's a surgical environment where nothing is going on that can affect accuracy (no combat, no distractions). Other than that, some damage is better than no damage. Isn't that why people like lasers? Unless you get really lucky, very rarely is all of that damage going to one component at long ranges.

[Wintersdark]

Malachy Karrde, on 18 July 2016 - 08:45 PM, said:

At 500 meters the lbx will mainly hit chest and side torso. Takes two to three shots to core center mass. Still takes 2 to three shots with uac, but ghost heat is a lot worse ( probably won't be able to after tomorrow's patch) therefore you won't be able to guarantee all that uac damage goes into one component. Also if you read my op, I never said they were identical weapons, I said that I got similar results with both setups over an equal number of matches. I also said that sample size was not as ideal as it could be, but my preliminary results was that I personally didn't have any noticeable deficiency using spred fire weapons compared to pinpoint.

I am sure that pinpoint weapons may perform better if a) the target stands still, you are standing still, c) it's a surgical environment where nothing is going on that can affect accuracy (no combat, no distractions). Other than that, some damage is better than no damage. Isn't that why people like lasers? Unless you get really lucky, very rarely is all of that damage going to one component at long ranges.

LBX's ALWAYS spread, you can't control that. UAC's MAY spread - and that MAY is mostly dependant on the firing player, that's a hugely important difference. Skill reduces UAC spread.

Ghost Heat: Only relevant in the case of the KDK-3, really. Nothing else (I guess some DWF's excepted) are packing 4 of them. - there's lots of Clam mechs than can pack 2xUAC10 or 2xLBX10, and the ghost heat isn't relevant there. While the LBX is a smidgeon cooler, the UAC10 is still cool enough that it doesn't really matter.

But that's not the important part. What's important is doubletapping. Two times the burst damage output. That's not a small difference.

[Lostdragon]

Try this: go to the testing grounds with both mechs. Find an Atlas, stand at 1m less than your weapon's max optimal range and aim at the CT. Shoot until it is dead, then come back and report how much ammo it took with the LBXs and ACs

[PhoenixFire55]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 July 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

A.) UACs also spread

B.) LB-X are fine when used in the appropriate range bracket

What he said. If you fight at ~200m ranges LBXs are superior. They also decrease facetime greatly compared to CUACs.

Wintersdark, on 18 July 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

4xUAC10 pushes 80 damage in about half a second, and can put all that into one component at 500m.

4xLBX10 pushes 40 damage, and at 500m is spreading that all over a mech - to every hitbox, even on a large mech.

In what world is that equal?

In a world where former generates three times the heat and jams like crazy.

[Idealsuspect]

Lostdragon, on 18 July 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

Try this: go to the testing grounds with both mechs. Find an Atlas, stand at 1m less than your weapon's max optimal range and aim at the CT. Shoot until it is dead, then come back and report how much ammo it took with the LBXs and ACs

Better, try exactly this with the jenner instead of atlas at 500 meters...


Anyway what is the point of this thread ... everyboby know that bigger max DPS builds on this game are srms+lbx buils and of course the unique kodiak3 4UAC10 if double tapping.
Spread weapons are really effective on close range coze high DPS and high DPH in same time.
Only LRMs aren't in this case for balancing the indirect fire and exceptionnal range advantage..


Its like all, there is good spread and bad spread. Good pinpoint and bad pinpoint.
And both are good or bad cause only depending on what range you use it.
You want test bad spread vs good pinpoint? Just test an lrms boat vs any other pinpoint build ...
Even vs bad pinpoint like clan ERLLs you can try it.

An lrm boat with always win agaisnt a srms build if lrm boat pilot is smart enough for keep srms guy at 300 meters away.

[Malachy Karrde]

Idealsuspect, on 19 July 2016 - 01:54 AM, said:

Better, try exactly this with the jenner instead of atlas at 500 meters...


Anyway what is the point of this thread ... everyboby know that bigger max DPS builds on this game are srms+lbx buils and of course the unique kodiak3 4UAC10 if double tapping.
Spread weapons are really effective on close range coze high DPS and high DPH in same time.
Only LRMs aren't in this case for balancing the indirect fire and exceptionnal range advantage..


Its like all, there is good spread and bad spread. Good pinpoint and bad pinpoint.
And both are good or bad cause only depending on what range you use it.
You want test bad spread vs good pinpoint? Just test an lrms boat vs any other pinpoint build ...
Even vs bad pinpoint like clan ERLLs you can try it.

An lrm boat with always win agaisnt a srms build if lrm boat pilot is smart enough for keep srms guy at 300 meters away.

Finally someone who gets it. In my limited testing I found that lbx were more effective against smaller targets than the uac, especially at longer ranges. The UAC seems more effective against bigger targets. Another note, testing against a stationary target is worthless. If you want to test something you need to fight with it, the only way to replicate combat conditions is to take it into combat.

[El Bandito]

Malachy Karrde, on 18 July 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

Even at 400 meters, most of the Lbx burst seemed to hit center mass.

No. At 400 meters, no.

[Idealsuspect]

Malachy Karrde, on 19 July 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

If you want to test something you need to fight with it, the only way to replicate combat conditions is to take it into combat.

I am not okay with this statement.

Shooting a stationnary target is of course easy but like in combat situation you always hit only what you did aim.
Also a spread weapon will always register a nice part of damage to a moving target, far or close, even it have a lag shield or you have lots of packets loss. You will see it at match result with your total damage.


In case of UAC you have to aim right for your shoot, i mean aim right for each bullets...

Also for be really effective with clan UAC or clan AC agaisnt a moving target and touch with 66-75% of all your projectiles in your unique click you have to aim the first bullet them keep moving aimcross for each others projectiles which follow the initial one well i mean you have to keep aiming during the shoot...

IMO agaisnt a moving target an Clan AC/UAC can be listed in " spread weapon" lol but a spread weapon class you can re-transform in pinpoint weapon class if you good enough ( and if you dont have connections issues of course ).