84 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock
@yebgretzsky well for one the main unit could lose valuable MC tags and we are introducing a new Cbill recruitment cost that grows with size

https://twitter.com/...749292447023105

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I do not understand the goal or positive effect of this idea some one help me.

[Gas Guzzler]

XX Sulla XX, on 14 January 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock
@yebgretzsky well for one the main unit could lose valuable MC tags and we are introducing a new Cbill recruitment cost that grows with size

https://twitter.com/...749292447023105

---------------------

I do not understand the goal or positive effect of this idea some one help me.

Ick, basically a method to make it more costly to have a big unit.

[Lyoto Machida]

XX Sulla XX, on 14 January 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock
@yebgretzsky well for one the main unit could lose valuable MC tags and we are introducing a new Cbill recruitment cost that grows with size

https://twitter.com/...749292447023105

---------------------

I do not understand the goal or positive effect of this idea some one help me.

It's a money sink to discourage 500 player units.

[XX Sulla XX]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 January 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

Ick, basically a method to make it more costly to have a big unit.

Yes I understand that the question is why is it a good thing to do?

Lyoto Machida, on 14 January 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

It's a money sink to discourage 500 player units.

Yes I know that but why?

[Flutterguy]

XX Sulla XX, on 14 January 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Yes I understand that the question is why is it a good thing to do?

Yes I know that but why?

It actually makes sense if they give financial rewards to entire units for taking planets.

[XX Sulla XX]

Flutterguy, on 14 January 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

It actually makes sense if they give financial rewards to entire units for taking planets.

Yes could be there are a lot more details and its part of a bigger plan for CW that makes more sense.

[Wintersdark]

XX Sulla XX, on 14 January 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Yes I understand that the question is why is it a good thing to do?

Yes I know that but why?

Because:

They're splitting the queues (unit players and solo players into separate queues). If you can leave and rejoin units freely, there will be much syncdropping and seal clubbing by units in the solo queue.

There will be financial rewards for holding worlds as a unit. Thus, there's a decided value to joining a unit that increases the larger the unit is.

Note that the second factor is almost certainly going to force maximum unit size caps or extremely high recruitment costs to large units to prevent abuse.

[Big Tin Man]

The reason: [Insert scary large unit name of choice] boogeyman stomping pugs and faction hopping to avoid other large units to farm planet tags and reap MC. It would stop the idea of all of the loyalist groups to band together and make one large loyalist unit (i.e. all AFFS units, we already get together for CW drops, why not merge and share rewards?) That's the reason.

What's going to happen is units will break into CW and non-cw groups, and then elitism will happen as taking on new/bad players will hurt unit coffers. Units will have training divisions and lower their unit's expenses.

Edited by Big Tin Man, 14 January 2016 - 03:16 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Flutterguy, on 14 January 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

It actually makes sense if they give financial rewards to entire units for taking planets.

This is not an "if" in this discussion. They ARE doing that as part of phase 3.

(as certainly as everything else they've discussed about it anyways, "that was our position at the time" notwithstanding)

[Flutterguy]

Wintersdark, on 14 January 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

This is not an "if" in this discussion. They ARE doing that as part of phase 3.

(as certainly as everything else they've discussed about it anyways, "that was our position at the time" notwithstanding)

The "if" was more about whether the financial rewards apply to the entire unit or just those participating in the cap. If the rewards scale with the size of the unit then they need to somehow limit the unit size to prevent payouts exceeding expectations.

[MischiefSC]

So it's part of a system designed to punish players for playing like players.

You need to only associate with comp tier people in as small and effective of a unit as possible. Anyone who doesn't log in enough and play well enough isn't your friend.

If that's not you then you need to have no unit, just drop into the solo queue where you'll Play in a pug queue with no matchmaker.

Because that's going to be the best experience for everyone.

[Big Tin Man]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

So it's part of a system designed to punish players for playing like players.

You need to only associate with comp tier people in as small and effective of a unit as possible. Anyone who doesn't log in enough and play well enough isn't your friend.

If that's not you then you need to have no unit, just drop into the solo queue where you'll Play in a pug queue with no matchmaker.

Because that's going to be the best experience for everyone.

Well, it depends on how the exponential curve goes, and if it's a one time cost or an ongoing fee. For example
players

0-50 are free,
51-100 are 100k each,
101-150 250k each
151-200 500k each
201-300 1000k each
300+ 5000k each

That doesn't really affect most units enough to matter.

[TexAce]

XX Sulla XX, on 14 January 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Yes I understand that the question is why is it a good thing to do?

Yes I know that but why?

its so unit members cant just hop in and out of their unit to try stomping people in the non-unit queues.

Edited by TexAce, 14 January 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[Wintersdark]

TexAce, on 14 January 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

its so unit members cant just hop in and out of their unit to try stomping people in the non-unit queues.

particularly situations like 12 guys in a unit dropping unit then joining the solo queue at the same time. Unlike in the pub queues, they'd all be on the same side. Easy sync dropping.

Basically, you want to ensure the rewards - particularly c-bills - of PUG stomping are lower than the costs of jumping in and out of units.

Few people really get off on seal clubbing, but a lot more will happily engage in it vs. harder fights when its massively profitable.

[EgoSlayer]

This just seems like a big kick in the jimmies for units with open recruitment policies.

If they are going to be charging, it should be based on the unit's success, not just unit numbers. It's an ill-planned "fix" to big merc units that penalizes everyone including the large casual units.

But then again, it's not like units are going to be able to recruit in CW anymore with the split unit/non-unit queue so maybe it won't matter...

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 14 January 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

Because:

They're splitting the queues (unit players and solo players into separate queues). If you can leave and rejoin units freely, there will be much syncdropping and seal clubbing by units in the solo queue.

There will be financial rewards for holding worlds as a unit. Thus, there's a decided value to joining a unit that increases the larger the unit is.

Note that the second factor is almost certainly going to force maximum unit size caps or extremely high recruitment costs to large units to prevent abuse.

you think 500 member units don't have billions available to their coffers?

It's not the big units hurt by this. It's small and mid-size units that DON'T have billions or hundreds of members

EgoSlayer, on 14 January 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

This just seems like a big kick in the jimmies for units with open recruitment policies.

If they are going to be charging, it should be based on the unit's success, not just unit numbers. It's an ill-planned "fix" to big merc units that penalizes everyone including the large casual units.

But then again, it's not like units are going to be able to recruit in CW anymore with the split unit/non-unit queue so maybe it won't matter...

start getting on twitter and saying something to Russ about it guys
seriously

He really honestly thinks these are good ideas to stop pug farming. If you don't pipe up then units are going to continue getting shafted

[Deathlike]

TexAce, on 14 January 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

its so unit members cant just hop in and out of their unit to try stomping people in the non-unit queues.

That is what alt accounts are for.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 14 January 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

you think 500 member units don't have billions available to their coffers?

It's not the big units hurt by this. It's small and mid-size units that DON'T have billions or hundreds of members

start getting on twitter and saying something to Russ about it guys
seriously

He really honestly thinks these are good ideas to stop pug farming. If you don't pipe up then units are going to continue getting shafted

But to what gain? If the cost to low units is small, how does it really hurt them? If joining a unit with, say, less than 25 members costs... Say, 1m cbills. Who cares? What if it's just free for little units?

I get this relies on PGI setting good prices, and there are inherent... issues with that... but seriously, all the price needs to do is make it not financially profitable to drop unit, pug farm, then rejoin unit, when compared to simply playing in the unit queue. It doesn't need to be a huge number, except for very large units.

Now, I realise this means very large units will split into smaller sub-units. But that then means, if you're in a smaller sub-unit, you're getting less (or even none) of the planetary holding rewards; assuming the "main core" unit is the one actually conquering worlds.

Given that, why wouldn't the smaller sub-units prefer to join into a larger unit themselves, and take worlds directly, reaping the sweet sweet $$?

Deathlike, on 14 January 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

That is what alt accounts are for.

But again - why? When taking a planet as a unit gains you real rewards in addition to match rewards, why would you spend time pug farming too? Why not just take the planet and gain more as a unit?

For all of everyone's talk, the lions share of players are fundamentally motivated by the sweet, sweet $$. They'll do whatever is most practical that way.

---

I mean, look, I'm a pretty reasonable guy, and totally on board to be convinced. But I'm not seeing a good alternative yet.

[Coolant]

I can't imagine there being any penalty for units under 50 members. I hope those units with hundreds get hit so hard with Cbill fees it is not sustainable for them to keep so many. Flooding both Quick and Faction Play ques with 8-12 mans is selfish, and harmful to the game long term.

[MischiefSC]

Wintersdark, on 14 January 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

But to what gain? If the cost to low units is small, how does it really hurt them? If joining a unit with, say, less than 25 members costs... Say, 1m cbills. Who cares? What if it's just free for little units?

I get this relies on PGI setting good prices, and there are inherent... issues with that... but seriously, all the price needs to do is make it not financially profitable to drop unit, pug farm, then rejoin unit, when compared to simply playing in the unit queue. It doesn't need to be a huge number, except for very large units.

Now, I realise this means very large units will split into smaller sub-units. But that then means, if you're in a smaller sub-unit, you're getting less (or even none) of the planetary holding rewards; assuming the "main core" unit is the one actually conquering worlds.

Given that, why wouldn't the smaller sub-units prefer to join into a larger unit themselves, and take worlds directly, reaping the sweet sweet $$?


But again - why? When taking a planet as a unit gains you real rewards in addition to match rewards, why would you spend time pug farming too? Why not just take the planet and gain more as a unit?

For all of everyone's talk, the lions share of players are fundamentally motivated by the sweet, sweet $$. They'll do whatever is most practical that way.

---

I mean, look, I'm a pretty reasonable guy, and totally on board to be convinced. But I'm not seeing a good alternative yet.

Why? Because if your UNIT gets a big payout for tagging a planet and dropping in an alt helps me flip the planet more quickly (especially against either very good opposition or no opposition) then I not only make tons of free cbills clubbing seals but I help my faction flip the world.

That's why the solo queue needs to have no direct impact on taking a planet.