71 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Oh yeah, half-size Phoenix Hawks, just what I always wanted!

[MeiSooHaityu]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 July 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

Oh yeah, half-size Phoenix Hawks, just what I always wanted!

I know you are being sarcastic, but...

As a person who still pilots a Phoenix Hawk, I would love it to be half the size it is .

[jss78]

MeiSooHaityu, on 26 July 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

I know you are being sarcastic, but...

As a person who still pilots a Phoenix Hawk, I would love it to be half the size it is .

Yeah, as another PXH pilot, I'm not actually sure a half-size Phoenix Hawk sounds like a bad thing.

IMO the one really good thing about the volumetric rescale was that it really helped the "light lights", see the QQ about Locust post-rescale.

[cazidin]

Judging by the recent and rather damaging nerf to the Locust's quirks, I doubt that any new 20-25 tons would have strong quirks even with hard point inflation to justify their existence. I'm sorry, but most 20 and 25 ton mechs are mediocre™ and would either be incredibly situational, or nonexistent, like Vindicators.

IF PGI wanted players to buy a new light mech then it needs to be both iconic AND powerful. If it has poor geometry, a low engine cap, few hard points or ANYTHING wrong with it at all then it will sell poorly.

[Y E O N N E]

MeiSooHaityu, on 26 July 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

I know you are being sarcastic, but...

As a person who still pilots a Phoenix Hawk, I would love it to be half the size it is .

I'm not even concerned with how good or bad it would be, only that it's yet another 'Mech I have no interest in potentially clogging the pipeline.

[Metus regem]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 July 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

I'm not even concerned with how good or bad it would be, only that it's yet another 'Mech I have no interest in potentially clogging the pipeline.

All the more reason to get them done and out of the pipeline....

besides they've got a bunch of the in-game models done for them, thanks to the Phoenix Hawk...

Stinger
Wasp
Valkryie
Phoenix Hawk
Crusader

all of those share art assets with each other in some way or another, so it would stand to reason, that with the Phoenix Hawk out, making those could be done in a shorter time frame.


As for their viability, the Stinger and Wasp both pack 6 JJ's in most configurations, giving them massive agility for their size.

[Malleus011]

The Wasp will be ruled by the 1W variant, which is a poor man's Hankyu. The others can at least find a niche of some kind.

The Stinger will struggle no matter what; it's a Locust 1V, but slower and can jump. At least the 3G version is all energy. The best thing you can do for the 3R is give it an unreasonable number of MG hardpoints, or stupid good quirks.

The Valkyrie will suffer the Curse of the Panther, being a perfectly good 'mech outside of MWO's utter frankenmech full customization orgy, but unable to compete with Firestarters and Jenners in MWO's funhouse mirror recreation of Battletech. It'll have a lower engine cap and unspectacular hardpoints.

All of them will be pint-sized Pheonix Hawks. These should be reasonably cheap for PGI to create, as they share a lot of 3D assets with the Phoenix Hawk itself. They could, in theory, bundle all three together in a 20$ pack, which might move sales. (IMHO, they should also give ALL Wasps and Stingers to new players for free upon account creation)

Give lights actual role warfare and the cheap 20/30 tonners will shine. But you can't expect them to brawl with Kodiaks and keep a balanced game.

Edited by Malleus011, 26 July 2016 - 08:51 AM.

[InspectorG]

Humanoid Locusts. I would pay $10 for that.

Inflate hard points a bit.
Good quirks.
PPC, SL, MG, SRM, Flamer, MPL.

Give the cockpit a nice FoV sideways. Give arms mobility to 90degrees and we can have fast little gangbangers.
Radar range quirks. Lock on speed quirks.

Hell, for lols I would give one streak cooldown quirks to dogfight other lights.

PGI just needs to get creative. Or just listen to me...

[Fang01]

Stone Wall, on 26 July 2016 - 03:09 AM, said:

I looked up the Wasp earlier and it really will suck in this game.

It would be as short as the commando or more, both models have an all energy variant, humanoid hitboxes, jump jets. Suck? Maybe for people who were already terrible in lights

[Metus regem]

Malleus011, on 26 July 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

(IMHO, they should also give ALL Wasps and Stingers to new players for free upon account creation)

I'd say give them a choice of one of the three most common mechs in the IS...

Locust
Wasp
Stinger

Once they make their choice, they get three variants of their selected chassis, with three mech bays, to give them a chance to get a feel for the game at no investment costs... this could also do away with the trial mechs.... I hate seeing trial Catapults in CW on my team...

[Fang01]

Metus regem, on 26 July 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

All the more reason to get them done and out of the pipeline....

besides they've got a bunch of the in-game models done for them, thanks to the Phoenix Hawk...

Stinger
Wasp
Valkryie
Phoenix Hawk
Crusader

all of those share art assets with each other in some way or another, so it would stand to reason, that with the Phoenix Hawk out, making those could be done in a shorter time frame.


As for their viability, the Stinger and Wasp both pack 6 JJ's in most configurations, giving them massive agility for their size.

Exactly. it'd be super easy to get done. shrink the PHX model, delete the backpack, and make new heads. maybe change the arms on one of em

[Elizander]

Lynx7725, on 26 July 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

I look at the Stinger and Wasp and I sigh.

In the Battletech world, as the tech progresses, 20 tonners were increasingly obsoleted; 20 ton Mechs were viable in the technological and economic backdrop of the Third Succession War, but once that was changed, their vulnerability and lack of options basically made them too ineffective after a certain time period.

That's in the Battletech world. In MWO, it's even worse due to the extreme levels of customization any mech can have, and the straight-up combat nature of the games we have now. With limited space and tonnage, 20 tonners just doesn't quite have appeal -- especially "mass production" models that didn't really have a niche.

I'm thinking, instead of separate mech packs, maybe for the Stinger and Wasp they can be combined as one mech pack, with a common skill tree. Considering how similar they are in model (since they had the same base design...), might be an easier way to churn up enough variations to satisfy the current requirements.

We'd be talking about a minimum of 6 energy hard points and quirks to boost Small Laser range to whatever maximum they can allow (+10% energy range, +20% small laser range) and heat reduction quirks to make up for the lack of heat sinks (-20% energy heat).

6 small lasers with ECM will allow for around 3 JJs. A bit sad, but without ECM they can take 6.

Alternatives would me to make a medium laser and an SRM2 seem goodlike, which isn't what I'd want. They can max out whatever quirks they can on ML range and heat gen as well as duration and cooldown then structure for the rest.

For the Stinger, since they're willing to go 50% MG RoF they could do that. There's also a 4 energy hardpoint Stinger that can just duplicate whateve ML quirks they put on the Wasp.

I'd recommend making them slightly bigger than a locust and just patch them up with armor quirks all over to get them to 25-30 tonner toughness (they already suck from low weapon count and worse geometry than a lolcust).

[Charlie Grant]

jss78, on 25 July 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

Maybe a Wasp pack with a Stinger variant capable of small-scale MG boating thrown in? The other Stingers might be a bit redundant alongside the Wasp energy boats.

I could see the developer looking at both mechs and deciding that one will suffice. While I appreciate and respect lore, I would accept such a conclusion.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Hit the Deck, on 26 July 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

Well, what else can you do in a Light?

The Raven-3L is one successful story of a Light which has a niche as a scout/spotter 'Mech, though sadly that role is neither useful nor rewarded currently. The Adder is a heavy weapon Light, but that role can only be done by a Clan Light. The Panther is an IS jumping (ER)PPC 'Light. Other unique Lights would be the Hollander or Piranha.

AC20 Raven 4x. It works. Well... it works for me.

[1453 R]

The problem with the Wasp/Stinger is that the only people who want them are old TT die-hards who don't even actually want them in MWO - you've all outright stated that you're only campaigning for these 'Mechs so HBS can have the models for use in their game.

In MWO terms, both the Stinger and the Wasp are not only useless, but boring. The Spider handles light, flimsy, poorly-armed hyper-jumpy thing; the Locust is your 20-ton high-speed twigweight scamp. Neither the Wasp nor Stinger add anything new to the table, even in the slim and twisted terms of 'something new' we go by here in MWO.

As has been said - the Wasp and Stinger's entire function in the TT cannon was to be dirt-cheap and mass-producible even in the Stone Ages of the 3025 era. They're cheap, disposable cut-rate mooks in 'Mech form; nobody sane pilots the things by choice in the lore. They have no real place or niche in MWO, not without quirks of the sort of magnitude most of the game's playerbase wants gone.

If HBS wants to work with Piranha to do modeling work for these two, perhaps pay for the privilege, that's cool. They would have a place in HBS' game...but even then, the Locust would be mostly sufficient for a cut-rate disposable 'Mech Mook. HBS has access to the Locust, the Spider, and the UrbanMech, alongside less throwaway lights like Jenners, Panthers, Wolfhounds, Ravens, and Firestarters. If anything, the "I want this in HBS' game!" crowd should be campaigning for the Valkyrie - current Sphere offerings for non-garbage lights lean decidedly Combine, given that stock Firestarters are worthless, and a light LRM-equipped machine like the Valkyrie would actually potentially be quite useful in HBS' BattleTech on top of offering a Federated Suns' answer to the Wolfhound, Panther, and Jenner.

Wasps? Stingers? They don't really do much of nothing I can't accomplish with a Locust or a Spider.

[FupDup]

Elizander, on 26 July 2016 - 12:41 AM, said:

Just give them the Artict Cheetoh treatment:

1) Inflated energy hard points, some high.
2) Specific quirks to increase Small Laser or Medium Laser range.
3) Quirks to reduce energy heat.
4) Put ECM on 1-3 variants.
5) Structure/Armor quirks.

Or they can be as small or annoying as a locust.

The Cheetah doesn't have inflated hardpoints. It has 100% Tabletop hardpoints. Zero inflation. Also, it came with ECM in its Prime stock build, so PGI did not "give" ECM to the Cheetah.

Its weapon quirks are basically gone now, as are almost all of the structure quirks (e.g. only +4 on one pair of legs).

[AmazingOnionMan]

I know this will bring forth unbridled hatred, rage and spittle flying, but how about not introducing Stingers and Wasps with massively inflated hardpoints and quirks, and instead use the opportunity to remove the same from many of the existing mechs?

There you have it, PGI. Give us Wasps, and start fixing your game at the same time!

Edited by AmazingOnionMan, 26 July 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Stone Wall]

Fang01, on 26 July 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

It would be as short as the commando or more, both models have an all energy variant, humanoid hitboxes, jump jets. Suck? Maybe for people who were already terrible in lights

The lore of it claims it sucks and was just the first mech with JJs. Side note: I enjoyed that Viper C video you put up.

[Metus regem]

Stone Wall, on 26 July 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

The lore of it claims it sucks and was just the first mech with JJs. Side note: I enjoyed that Viper C video you put up.

The Lore for the Wasp states that it isn't as fast as the average light Mech, but it is much better armed and armoured, letting the 6jj's give it enough mobility to keep up with faster lights. Also side note, in lore it shares coming parts with the Stinger, something like 20-30℅ of the parts found on a Stinger are drop in replacements for a Wasp.

[Malleus011]

1453 R, on 26 July 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

Wasps? Stingers? They don't really do much of nothing I can't accomplish with a Locust or a Spider.

Much of that argument can be applied to any of the IS 'mechs we don't already have. Crusader? You can do the same thing with a Catapult and enjoy better hitboxes. Flashman is a fat Black Knight. Hardpoint inflation and unlimited customization does that.

The Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie and Crusader can't offer anything significantly unique to MWO gameplay at this point, unless PGI changes core mechanics, which they won't.

But they're riding the mechpack train, and they can't get off without crashing, so they've got to sell something.

Edited by Malleus011, 26 July 2016 - 01:52 PM.