120 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Coolant, on 30 July 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

clan streak 4/6's are the issue....

Those two are the primary symptoms of the issue, but the true underlying issue (the "disease") is the combination of easy lock-on mechanics and hitbox targeting that is divorced from aiming. Those two launchers just benefit the most from the issue.

Edited by FupDup, 30 July 2016 - 12:19 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

dario03, on 30 July 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

True, but a lot of lights op threads had that kind of tone so he was probably going for that.

But I wasn't just talking about this thread. I was talking about the topic in general. This isn't the first time this has been brought up and it usually isn't in a sarcastic tone. But yet these are the same kind of replies that you will find in those threads.

Lights are screwed over, this ain't news, but Streaks aren't the problem. As I've said, anyone who can aim will currently instagib any light except maybe Locust with lasers, PPCs, ACs, Gauss much faster than with Streaks. Lights weren't all that good even prior to rescale but now they are more or less useless in a fight and yet they have zero alternative objectives. This is the problem of game modes / objectives, not weapons.

[Andi Nagasia]

Coolant, on 30 July 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

clan streak 4/6's are the issue....

so what id w Nerf Streak 4/6s?
now Streaks go from being viable against lights to not Viable vs anything?
the Whole lock on Targeting mechanic needs a rework, i think PTS Info Warfare needs to come back,

[dario03]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 July 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

Lights are screwed over, this ain't news, but Streaks aren't the problem. As I've said, anyone who can aim will currently instagib any light except maybe Locust with lasers, PPCs, ACs, Gauss much faster than with Streaks. Lights weren't all that good even prior to rescale but now they are more or less useless in a fight and yet they have zero alternative objectives. This is the problem of game modes / objectives, not weapons.

Its a problem of game modes, objectives, and weapons. Streaks are not the whole issue but they are part of it. And lights being weak is why it makes no sense for a weapon system to counter a style of play for lights.

Andi Nagasia, on 30 July 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

so what id w Nerf Streak 4/6s?
now Streaks go from being viable against lights to not Viable vs anything?
the Whole lock on Targeting mechanic needs a rework, i think PTS Info Warfare needs to come back,

A rework of lock on system would be great but isn't needed to change streaks for now. The op suggestion while written sarcastically is a valid idea to change streaks. I have posted it many times and explained how it could work. You simply decrease streak damage while making streaks more likely to hit torsos on bigger mechs. So now you have made them less of a counter to lights but made them more viable against all the other classes. Its a nerf and a buff to the weapon system and is more balanced against the classes.
You could also adjust range, rof, tracking ability of streaks, fix artemis or set up a downside to streaks with artemis, ammo count, etc, etc.

Edited by dario03, 30 July 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Bush Hopper, on 30 July 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

You are hiding behind your team because one weapon system completely counters a whole class. And that you call balanced?

LOL, I'm not hiding, I've scouted their mechs and builds, told my team about it and now I'll let my team waste their mechs that are useless against anything 40t+. I can still spot enemies and control their movements, i.e. doing scouts job, being perfectly safe at 500m distance.

FYI, lights aren't supposed to fight. Its the problem of MWO that doesn't really provide them (or anyone really) with any meaningful objectives apart from killing the enemy.

Bush Hopper, on 30 July 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

The icing on the cake is that you do that not in quickplay but in FW where you can actually hide much easier. Especially in QP you have to hope that someone reacts when you retreat and one of the fatties intercepts the streak boat.

Not only that, you pretend that it is so easy to spot every streak boat approaching. Well, play a light mech outside of your protected little world of FW and unit and see how easy that is.

I don't play FW ... at all. Frankly I can't care less whats going on there.

Bush Hopper, on 30 July 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

As for hiding: This event just shows how imbalanced this weapon system is. During this match we had 1 Skill Crow and 2 Skill Cats. All the lights could do was run away and stay out of the way or get annihilated. Guess how the match went?

Either you didn't relate this info to your team or your team didn't use this to its advantage. Its your problem or their problem, and nothing to do with streaks.

Bush Hopper, on 30 July 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

As for your person, you do not play lights in quickplay and judge from FW pov (what do you run there in your dropdeck. One light? That you call light mech experience. Really?). You do not even participate in the event. I am sorry, but doing that and giving "smart" advice like "hide behind your team" makes you look like a hypocrite and quite ignorant.

I got 12 fully mastered light chassis, 42 fully mastered lights, all mastered in QP. I play lights in league matches all the time. I can't care less about your "expert" light pilot opinion. Lights move at 150 kph, fastest streak boat runs 110 kph, if you can't find ways to be useful and/or aren't aware of your surroundings then once again its your problem.

[PhoenixFire55]

dario03, on 30 July 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

Its a problem of game modes, objectives, and weapons. Streaks are not the whole issue but they are part of it. And lights being weak is why it makes no sense for a weapon system to counter a style of play for lights.

Game modes - yes. Objectives - yes. Weapons - no. Convergence - maybe. Lights are weak in a fight, as they should be. Lights are strong at moving around, spotting, scouting etc. as they should be. Once again, game should provide viable objectives for lights, not nerf everything and anything (including lights btw) to accomodate for their weakness.

[dario03]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 July 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Game modes - yes. Objectives - yes. Weapons - no. Convergence - maybe. Lights are weak in a fight, as they should be. Lights are strong at moving around, spotting, scouting etc. as they should be. Once again, game should provide viable objectives for lights, not nerf everything and anything (including lights btw) to accomodate for their weakness.

Weapons (specifically streaks) - yes. Streaks are a counter to a style of play against a weak class. There is no reason for this so changing (not just nerfing) streaks makes sense.
Also since there is almost nothing but fighting in this game, lights should not be weak. We are playing the game we have not the game people think we should have based on TT or lore. So lights should not be weak. They don't need to be able to face tank a Atlas but they should be more combat viable than they are now.

[PhoenixFire55]

dario03, on 30 July 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

Weapons (specifically streaks) - yes. Streaks are a counter to a style of play against a weak class.

No. They work at limited range, noboby is forcing you to come into that range, just like nobody is forcing you to facetank mechs when you have regular PPCs or LRMs. Lights aren't supposed to leghump bigger mechs, deal with it please. You know well enough the a decent player in a laservomit mech will take your light our much faster than any streakboat and at bigger range, let alone someone with 2xGauss+2xERPPC Kodiak and hands growing from right places.

[dario03]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 July 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

No. They work at limited range, noboby is forcing you to come into that range, just like nobody is forcing you to facetank mechs when you have regular PPCs or LRMs. Lights aren't supposed to leghump bigger mechs, deal with it please. You know well enough the a decent player in a laservomit mech will take your light our much faster than any streakboat and at bigger range, let alone someone with 2xGauss+2xERPPC Kodiak and hands growing from right places.

I'm still not seeing a reason for why streaks can't be changed or why they should be a counter to a weak class.

[PhoenixFire55]

dario03, on 30 July 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

I'm still not seeing a reason for why streaks can't be changed or why they should be a counter to a weak class.

Streaks are homing missiles, they are gonna auto-hit lights and anything, you can't change that. Why isn't there a much bigger ghost heat penalty for hugh SSRM alpahs I don't know. Probably coz PGI is clueless, which they've shown once again with CUAC10 ghost heat stealth changes. As for modules like target decay and other "locking" mechanics ****, then thats another matter entirely, surely relevant not for streaks only.

[dario03]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 July 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

Streaks are homing missiles, they are gonna auto-hit lights and anything, you can't change that. Why isn't there a much bigger ghost heat penalty for hugh SSRM alpahs I don't know. Probably coz PGI is clueless, which they've shown once again with CUAC10 ghost heat stealth changes. As for modules like target decay and other "locking" mechanics ****, then thats another matter entirely, surely relevant not for streaks only.

I'm fine with them hitting lights. My issue is the no crit not weight artemis, the damage, the range, the ammo count, the spread, etc, etc.
I see no reason that we couldn't adjust some things to make them less effective vs lights and more effective against bigger mechs. Lower damage but with higher weight of target meaning higher chance of torso hits would do that. Its not a nerf, its a rebalance that makes sense.
I also don't see why we can't put some kind of downside on streaks with artemis. If we can't have 2 different lock ons then there should be a different negative.

Edited by dario03, 30 July 2016 - 01:39 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 July 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

Streaks are homing missiles, they are gonna auto-hit lights and anything, you can't change that. Why isn't there a much bigger ghost heat penalty for hugh SSRM alpahs I don't know. Probably coz PGI is clueless, which they've shown once again with CUAC10 ghost heat stealth changes. As for modules like target decay and other "locking" mechanics ****, then thats another matter entirely, surely relevant not for streaks only.

Face Tanking an SSRM Swarm can save your life,
even an LCT, can Face Tank 3 Alphas from a SkillCrow(5SSRM6),
thats 12 seconds of Skill Crow Reloading to Get away and save your self,

the thing is Lots of Novice Light Pilots dont have good situational Awareness, or how to handle SSRMs,
if you see, a Mech you think has SSRMs, Press® and see if it does, if it doesnt Avoid it like the Plague,
also if your getting shot at by SSRMs dont Twist, that will only Force all the Missiles to hit one side,

[moneyBURNER]

Streaks negate skill a bit too much in various scenarios against light mechs. A streakboat of nearly any skill level can obliterate a highly skilled light pilot when that light pilot finds himself exposed for a mere couple of seconds, which is often unrealistic to avoid in 12vs12 quickplay, especially when the light pilot has a greater burden to win the match and can't hide behind teammates.

Consider that elite players with directfire weapons can sometimes miss shots, particularly during a tense moment when either opponent is close to death, or can otherwise inadvertently hit another location on the enemy light that can take the damage, which offers a fair chance of winning for the light pilot, whereas a streakboat in those situations is almost always more deadly because their typically higher alpha actually benefits from the spread damage by hitting multiple components including an already damaged section that leads to death, or it just overwhelms the armor on a single component during an unfortunate evasive maneuver that destroys the light mech.

A light pilot has to play exceptionally well to beat a streakboat, or be lucky to have very good teammates, but a streakboat just needs a couple of seconds of LOS here and there for a guaranteed kill. I acknowledge that streakboats do require skill overall in terms of dealing with the other weight classes, such as tactical positioning. But they are simply unbalanced versus light mechs in the most popular modes of gameplay.

[Moldur]

Wow. 3 pages for a thread about "I got killed by x weapon so x weapon is OP."

Get over it.

[Mordecai McTiernan]

Just remove all "auto-aiming" weapons from the game?
Pretty Please?
With Cherries on Top?

[PhoenixFire55]

dario03, on 30 July 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I'm fine with them hitting lights. My issue is the no crit not weight artemis, the damage, the range, the ammo count, the spread, etc, etc.

Well, Artemis thing is a bug we've reported years ago. PGI doesn't care. Damage is taken from TT values, like all weapons, range is also derivated from TT, although it can be brought down to normal SRM range, range modules are an abomination spawned by PGI. Ammo count is same as SRMs, spread is as big as it possibly gets. I really don't see an issue apart from Artemis idiocy.

dario03, on 30 July 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I see no reason that we couldn't adjust some things to make them less effective vs lights and more effective against bigger mechs. Lower damage but with higher weight of target meaning higher chance of torso hits would do that. Its not a nerf, its a rebalance that makes sense.
I also don't see why we can't put some kind of downside on streaks with artemis. If we can't have 2 different lock ons then there should be a different negative.

Maybe, maybe not. The reason is same its always been. PGI doesn't play their own game, doesn't understand their own game and most importantly doesn't give a damn. Recent balance changes make no sense, none at all.
But we are on an Island^TM. Opinions do not Matter^TM.

Anyhow, as I've said I really don't see an issue with lights-streaks. In a big picture streaks are balanced all things considered and lights should have something else to do apart from backstabbing. I don't really have any hope that they'll (and everyone else) ever will tho.

[Andi Nagasia]

@moneyBURNER
lets not pretend SSRMs are some Great weapon system,
a Full Face Tanked SkillCrow Volley cant even Kill a Face tanking LCT in one hit,
and then you have 4 seconds to get away, most lights can do it,
(Lights < SkillCrow < Heavies < Assaults < Lights)
Edit- Spelling,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 30 July 2016 - 01:59 PM.

[moneyBURNER]

Andi Nagasia, on 30 July 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

@moneyBURNER
lets not pretend SSRMs are some Great weapon system,
a Full Face Tanked SkillCrow Volley cant even Kill a Face tanking LCT in one hit,
and then you have 4 seconds to get away, most lights can do it,
(Lights < SkillCrow < Heavies < Assaults < Lights)
Edit- Spelling,

You may be able to do that in your quick, tiny locust, but I most often can't in my giant walking toilet, the JR7-F, which I have played exclusively since the rescale, for my own sense of bittersweet challenge/struggle.

[dario03]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 July 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Well, Artemis thing is a bug we've reported years ago. PGI doesn't care. Damage is taken from TT values, like all weapons, range is also derivated from TT, although it can be brought down to normal SRM range, range modules are an abomination spawned by PGI. Ammo count is same as SRMs, spread is as big as it possibly gets. I really don't see an issue apart from Artemis idiocy.



Maybe, maybe not. The reason is same its always been. PGI doesn't play their own game, doesn't understand their own game and most importantly doesn't give a damn. Recent balance changes make no sense, none at all.
But we are on an Island^TM. Opinions do not Matter^TM.

Anyhow, as I've said I really don't see an issue with lights-streaks. In a big picture streaks are balanced all things considered and lights should have something else to do apart from backstabbing. I don't really have any hope that they'll (and everyone else) ever will tho.

"Thats just how it is" isn't really a valid argument. So like you said artemis streaks is a problem so something should be done.

Damage is not taken directly from TT for all weapons.
Range is also not taken directly from TT for all weapons.
Both of those have been adjusted on weapons before, no reason we can't do it again.

Ammo count is the same as srms which was my whole point. Why do cssrm have more range, tracking, and do the same damage as csrm but yet have the same missile count?

Spread is as large as it gets is also the point I was making. Make the spread better on bigger mechs.

And lights do not have other things to do and yeah they probably never will. And since they are already weak there is no need for streaks to be how they are. They are not balanced well.

[Andi Nagasia]

moneyBURNER, on 30 July 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

You may be able to do that in your quick, tiny locust, but I most often can't in my giant walking toilet, the JR7-F, which I have played exclusively since the rescale, for my own sense of bittersweet challenge/struggle.

for a JR7 its even Easier as its a Larger Target, the SSRMs are more likely to spread about,
also to my Knowledge other than the JR7-O, JR7 Agility Stats didnt Change with the Rescale,
only their Movement Type Changed, which Only changed its hill Climb angle(40* to 35*),
also with this most recent Patch we saw almost all JR7s get another Agility Boost,

so your (giant walking toilet) should be more worried about Stuff targeting its CT,
not SSRMs that share the love no matter how big Certain Hitboxes are,