224 replies to this topic

[Spider00x]

Gaudium, on 04 August 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

OP is trying to levy balance by comparing apples vs oranges. You're trying to ask how an IS pug is supposed to counter an organized 8+ man Kodiak wave. You even admitted that your team defeated this group despite how imbalanced this set up is, which shows to me that for a game mode that advocates organized fighting vs organized fighting, that this is working just fine.

Again read my opening post carefully, we won cause we have some of the best IS pilots around collected from tons of small IS units, if I was with an 8 man of dudes on TS we wouldn't have won that brawl, in fact if we weren't testing out a crab atlas push we wouldn't have won that brawl.

The issue is casual and pug players will lose 100 percent of the time to opening drop of 12 kodiaks. Before this meta IS pugs actually had a chance although a slim one to pull off a win. This again is a case were the facts speak for themselves it's almost a non debate

[Spider00x]

xX PUG Xx, on 04 August 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

I agree that overall Clan has very slight advantage but again the majority of the gameplay balance is magnified by player choice. I'll use Scout mode as my example since this is continuously brought up:

Inexperienced IS player drops into Scout match, chooses to bring LRM equipped Medium or Light 'Mech. (The current IS Trial 'Mechs are poorly equipped for Scout missions).

Inexperienced Clan player drops into Scout match, chooses to bring C-Streak SRM or C-SPL Medium or C-ERSL equiped Light 'Mech.

As per usual the Scout mission devolves into a close to medium range furball and IS pilot proceeds to be torn to pieces. IS player has a few choices: go to the forum and try to find out what 'Mechs are useful for Scout missions, keep trying to use the same poor choices of 'Mech/build or simply stay away from Scout missions. The last option is to try and communicate with their teammates, I tend to type at the beginning of a match "legs of ct?" or "If you have direct fire, go for the legs". Something simple to help get my team to have the barest of common goal, if I have VOIP turned on I will try and call tagets and movements.

For me it again comes down to knowledge, Clan Mediums have the firepower of most IS Heavy 'Mechs but they do not have the cooling capacity to match, nor the armour/structure quirks of the appropriate IS Medium 'Mechs. IF an IS pilot brings the appropriate 'Mech, then the deciding factor becomes pilot skill and team communcation. (FYI I normally use a Hunchie 4SP with 2xASRM6 and 4x SPL when Scouting, even if I don't win I can guarantee the enemy are hurting at the end of the match).

So again it comes down to the players choices and knowledge, rather than a balancing issue and i'm not sure what can be done by any programmer to compensate for that. I do hope that PGI look at the changes in metrics from the last two patches and give IS 'Mechs a small buff to bring the balance back a little but I do feel it won't make as much of an impact on everyday PuG vs PuG matches as you think. Even less on PuG vs Group matches where the coordination and communication are the deciding factor in 8 out of 10 occasions.

I still think your over complicating the issue a little, and it goes back to what count zero has been saying for months esp. Concerning scouting, IS has a more focus on team play because YOU MUST focus fire to win period in a medium mech duel for example it is incredibly hard unless you focus fire clan mechs.

Pug players just don't do it and it's why they can't kill kodiaks or streak crows in scouting.

[Gaudium]

Spider00x, on 04 August 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

Again read my opening post carefully, we won cause we have some of the best IS pilots around collected from tons of small IS units, if I was with an 8 man of dudes on TS we wouldn't have won that brawl, in fact if we weren't testing out a crab atlas push we wouldn't have won that brawl.

The issue is casual and pug players will lose 100 percent of the time to opening drop of 12 kodiaks. Before this meta IS pugs actually had a chance although a slim one to pull off a win. This again is a case were the facts speak for themselves it's almost a non debate

And I urge you to re read my post carefully, because I have read your opening post plus the rest of it. I don't believe you're trying to troll, I think you're trying to present something you believe to be an issue in a very poor fashion. The only thing I agree with you is that Kodiaks are powerful.

Kodiaks or not, IS pugs are always going to have a hell of a time against any organized 12 man team worth their salt. The issue isn't Kodiaks in this game mode, it's the player population unwilling and/or unable to form their own unit to organize tactics/strategy against their enemy, because Invasion (hell any game mode really) favors cohesive, organization. You proved my point in your opening post by saying that you won through what I just stated, then again with your rebuttal.

Edited by Gaudium, 04 August 2016 - 04:12 PM.

[Spider00x]

Gaudium, on 04 August 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

And I urge you to re read my post carefully, because I have read your opening post plus the rest of it. I don't believe you're trying to troll, I think you're trying to present something you believe to be an issue in a very poor fashion. The only thing I agree with you is that Kodiaks are powerful.

Kodiaks or not, IS pugs are always going to have a hell of a time against any organized 12 man team worth their salt. The issue isn't Kodiaks in this game mode, it's the player population unwilling and/or unable to form their own unit to organize tactics/strategy against their enemy, because Invasion (hell any game mode really) favors cohesive, organization. You proved my point in your opening post by saying that you won through what I just stated, then again with your rebuttal.

By defacto your saying the pugs need to 'get gud' there response it to either not play the game or go clan and buy kodiaks themselves that isn't a solution it's killing the game mode.

. I'm assuming their members all naught kodiaks for a reason an expensive mech pack because it produces results. They are a classic example of a team hoping to be carried by the technology.

Edited by Spider00x, 04 August 2016 - 04:20 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

I would like to point out that when CW as it was called back in the day, IS used to front load drop decks with 100 tonners to begin with.

Clans learned to get around it and IS stopped doing it cause while it gave them a good 1st and 2nd wave advantage, it gimped them for the 3rd and 4th.

The sustained drops of 3 heavies and a light over all works better than 1 assault, 1 heavy, 1 medium and a light. Weight limit is the same but a drop deck with 3 heavies is more flexible and forgiving.

[Gaudium]

Spider00x, on 04 August 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

By defacto your saying the pugs need to 'get gud' there response it to either not play the game or go clan and buy kodiaks themselves that isn't a solution it's killing the game mode.

. I'm assuming their members all naught kodiaks for a reason an expensive mech pack because it produces results. They are a classic example of a team hoping to be carried by the technology.

No, I'm saying they need to form a cohesive 12 man unit in order to play in a game mode that heavily advocates organized fighting. That's just simply the reality of the situation. They're not special snowflakes that need to tailor made this game to fit their own situation. They either adapt and do what I say and have a strong chance at winning this game, just like your unit has done and that you have even presented evidence to prove my point, or they can just give up.

If you think nerfing the kodiak even further will somehow change this specific game mode and somehow revitalize the player population, you are sorely mistaken, because PGI has gone down this route ever since quirks were introduced into the game and they gave mechs like the Thunderbolt and Stalker the nerf treatment, which has still culminated to the present state of FP where it is today.

Edited by Gaudium, 04 August 2016 - 04:27 PM.

[xX PUG Xx]

Spider00x, on 04 August 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

I still think your over complicating the issue a little, and it goes back to what count zero has been saying for months esp. Concerning scouting, IS has a more focus on team play because YOU MUST focus fire to win period in a medium mech duel for example it is incredibly hard unless you focus fire clan mechs.

Pug players just don't do it and it's why they can't kill kodiaks or streak crows in scouting.

Sorry, I am being over complicated in the way I am trying to illustrate it (sorry nightshift and foggy brain )but saying "teamwork trumps all" sounds a little too simple However teamwork is a choice and choosing to drop solo, in many cases, is a choice not to use it but then we are heading back to Armando's epic thread about solo players, etc. (Let's not go there again).

CS-SRM's do have a range advantage but this can be countered by approaching using cover and having Radar Dep. equipped. Once you are in range, an appropriately built IS 'Mech has the advantage in being able to focus it's damage output on a specific component, while the Streaks are dependant on the RNG being kind. I know you know this and put it to good use as I've played alongside you often enough, I think what we arecall trying to avoid and what I tried to say (in an overly complicated way) is that the PuG's need to learn how to counter what they are facing (gain knowledge ) and how to make it work....

Which is the same as Git Gud but in a competitive PvP environment without a skill based match maker, that is exactly what they need to do. Knowledge is power

I don't want to turn this into a "if you want to learn to play, join a team/unit" but learning from the right person can turn a poor or mediocre player into a good, solid asset to any team. Usually the "right person" will be in a unit and will therefore be focussed on spending time with players in that unit, not training unknown random players. Although I know Heimdelight does or did do just that on the ComStar TS server for those who asked and is one hell of a good pilot to learn from.

So if a PuG doesn't want to get rolled in a game mode that emphasises teamwork, they would be better off getting into a group themselves. Get on your factions TS hub if you are not in a unit (or even if you are not looking to join one yet) and look for others to play with. If it's the "right person" they will teach you the ropes but you'll have to be willing to learn.


(I think i've gone off on a tangent......nightshift, meh )

[Spider00x]

Gaudium, on 04 August 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

No, I'm saying they need to form a cohesive 12 man unit in order to play in a game mode that heavily advocates organized fighting. That's just simply the reality of the situation. They're not special snowflakes that need to tailor made this game to fit their own situation. They either adapt and do what I say and have a strong chance at winning this game, just like your unit has done and that you have even presented evidence to prove my point, or they can just give up.

If you think nerfing the kodiak even further will somehow change this specific game mode and somehow revitalize the player population, you are sorely mistaken, because PGI has gone down this route ever since quirks were introduced into the game and they gave mechs like the Thunderbolt and Stalker the nerf treatment, which has still culminated to the present state of FP where it is today.

They are special snow flakes they deserve a chance even if it's remote to win games. like I've said a 100 times in posts above this one they have 0 chance to win against 12 kodiaks....

You also assume everyone wants to be in a unit you also assume said unit will be good enough to beat 12 Kodiak drop. I'm telling you here and now it's one of the most difficult tasks to accomplish to the uninitiated. Especially on FW choke point oriented maps.

Pugs get stomped that is never going to changet but at least the flicker of hope existed that they might pull off the next one. I'm here to tell you there is no hope here not with 12 kodiaks. I'm sorry period none.

I also said above I'm not looking to nerf the kodiaks I just want pgi to STOP nerfing IS so they at least have the confidence to buy meta mechs of their own and compete.

Edited by Spider00x, 04 August 2016 - 04:51 PM.

[Spider00x]

xX PUG Xx, on 04 August 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

Sorry, I am being over complicated in the way I am trying to illustrate it (sorry nightshift and foggy brain )but 7saying "teamwork trumps all" sounds a little too simple However teamwork is a choice and choosing to drop solo, in many cases, is a choice not to use it but then we are heading back to Armando's epic thread about solo players, etc. (Let's not go there again).

CS-SRM's do have a range advantage but this can be countered by approaching using cover and having Radar Dep. equipped. Once you are in range, an appropriately built IS 'Mech has the advantage in being able to focus it's damage output on a specific component, while the Streaks are dependant on the RNG being kind. I know you know this and put it to good use as I've played alongside you often enough, I think what we arecall trying to avoid and what I tried to say (in an overly complicated way) is that the PuG's need to learn how to counter what they are facing (gain knowledge ) and how to make it work....

Which is the same as Git Gud but in a competitive PvP environment without a skill based match maker, that is exactly what they need to do. Knowledge is power

I don't want to turn this into a "if you want to learn to play, join a team/unit" but learning from the right person can turn a poor or mediocre player into a good, solid asset to any team. Usually the "right person" will be in a unit and will therefore be focussed on spending time with players in that unit, not training unknown random players. Although I know Heimdelight does or did do just that on the ComStar TS server for those who asked and is one hell of a good pilot to learn from.

So if a PuG doesn't want to get rolled in a game mode that emphasises teamwork, they would be better off getting into a group themselves. Get on your factions TS hub if you are not in a unit (or even if you are not looking to join one yet) and look for others to play with. If it's the "right person" they will teach you the ropes but you'll have to be willing to learn.


(I think i've gone off on a tangent......nightshift, meh )

It's all good pug and I love you brother you've dropped with us and you know we're not scrubs but someone had to make this post or at least make the argument. IS is beat down and knocked down at the moment when it's not getting hammered from long tom it's getting murdered by kodiaks this debate needed to be had esp. Coming from one of the last prime time IS comp teams. Thank God we had combat ID so I could take the screen shot to show people in living color this threat is real and is not going away anytime soon.

Im just trying to send a message; Stop nerfing IS PGI christ, if this some some kinda way to weed out quirks to balance IS for the power draw then say that Russ cause it's bleak as hell right now playing IS.

Edited by Spider00x, 04 August 2016 - 05:10 PM.

[Gaudium]

Spider00x, on 04 August 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

They are special snow flakes they deserve a chance even if it's remote to win games. like I've said a 100 times in posts above this one they have 0 chance to win against 12 kodiaks....

You also assume everyone wants to be in a unit you also assume said unit will be good enough to beat 12 Kodiak drop. I'm telling you here and now it's one of the most difficult tasks to accomplish to the uninitiated. Especially on FW choke point oriented maps.

Pugs get stomped that is never going to changet but at least the flicker of hope existed that they might pull off the next one. I'm here to tell you there is no hope here not with 12 kodiaks. I'm sorry period none.

I also said above I'm not looking to nerf the kodiaks I just want pgi to STOP nerfing IS so they at least have the confidence to buy meta mechs of their own and compete.

Not to troll you, but IS pugs vs organized 12 mans always have a chance to win, their chances are just extremely low. I'm also not making any assumptions you are, I'm simply stating the facts of the current iteration of Faction Play. Never once did I say people want to be part of a unit, nor did I assume the skill level of any unit or individual member thereof in of said unit, I simply stated that for them to up their chances to win they NEED to be part of an organized, cohesive unit. That is the cold reality of the situation.

Also no, solo puggers on either side of the fence, IS or Clan, are so special that organized 12 mans need to be punished for playing the game properly as it was intended. This game has always favored organized teams over random pugs since quick matches were the only game mode to play and it still is set up in such a manner. Organized teams will always stomp over chaotic, random ones because they have the tactics and strategy to utilize their numbers to act as efficient as possible. I even argue that the lore of the franchise that this game is built on also reinforces that time and time again with numerous different stories, informational pages.

They nerfed mechs in the past like the Thunderbolt and Stalker just to name a couple, and that hasn't stopped the decline in player population in Faction Play, despite "giving pugs a flicker of hope to win" because nothing stops organized groups from using current powerful mechs, just as it doesn't stop pugs. It just shifts meta. Also, again, you're wrong, an all kodiak drop CAN be beaten by a pug, it just depends on the circumstances and organization of the pugs. You have proven this by showing that organized, cohesive teamwork can beat this comp. Even pugs with absolute no teamwork have a very miniscule chance of winning against a 12 kodiak drop, it's not an absolute zero, that's completely illogical to assume so.

Now the part where you are completely contradicting yourself. You don't want the kodiak to be nerfed, yet you keep saying that they're at the heart of the problem in terms of game balance. According to you, IS pugs stand absolutely NO possible chance in any realm or circumstance of beating this group, and that the only way you managed to curb this nightmare menace of impossibility was through teamwork.

Let me tell you what imbalance really is. If you had presented this arguement with actual evidence showing your organized unit being absolutely decimated, over and over and over again, by another organized group that didn't even lose their kodiaks, despite having some of the best pilots you believe to possess, as well as a slew of games of IS pugs fighting Clan pugs that used this exact same tactic and having the same results, I really couldn't have argued you then. You didn't do that though.
Instead, you posted one instance of one team doing this tactic and failing at it then created a strawman arguement about how IS pugs would be completely halpless in the same scenario. Can you see exactly why I not only disagree with your poorly presented point, but how I also don't believe your intention ISN'T to nerf kodiaks further? If PGI actually listens to you, they won't buff the various nerfed IS mechs, they'll just gut the kodiak even more, because they have NEVER reversed their decision to buff a mech they once nerfed.

Edited by Gaudium, 04 August 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[Gerwig]

i'll reiterate, the unit with the highest w/l ratio in cw(11+) came to IS and got their face kicked in repeatedly. Game isn't balanced

[Spider00x]

Gaudium, on 04 August 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Not to troll you, but IS pugs vs organized 12 mans always have a chance to win, their chances are just extremely low. I'm also not making any assumptions you are, I'm simply stating the facts of the current iteration of Faction Play. Never once did I say people want to be part of a unit, nor did I assume the skill level of any unit or individual member thereof in of said unit, I simply stated that for them to up their chances to win they NEED to be part of an organized, cohesive unit. That is the cold reality of the situation.

Also no, solo puggers on either side of the fence, IS or Clan, are so special that organized 12 mans need to be punished for playing the game properly as it was intended. This game has always favored organized teams over random pugs since quick matches were the only game mode to play and it still is set up in such a manner. Organized teams will always stomp over chaotic, random ones because they have the tactics and strategy to utilize their numbers to act as efficient as possible. I even argue that the lore of the franchise that this game is built on also reinforces that time and time again with numerous different stories, informational pages.

They nerfed mechs in the past like the Thunderbolt and Stalker just to name a couple, and that hasn't stopped the decline in player population in Faction Play, despite "giving pugs a flicker of hope to win" because nothing stops organized groups from using current powerful mechs, just as it doesn't stop pugs. It just shifts meta. Also, again, you're wrong, an all kodiak drop CAN be beaten by a pug, it just depends on the circumstances and organization of the pugs. You have proven this by showing that organized, cohesive teamwork can beat this comp. Even pugs with absolute no teamwork have a very miniscule chance of winning against a 12 kodiak drop, it's not an absolute zero, that's completely illogical to assume so.

Now the part where you are completely contradicting yourself. You don't want the kodiak to be nerfed, yet you keep saying that they're at the heart of the problem in terms of game balance. According to you, IS pugs stand absolutely NO possible chance in any realm or circumstance of beating this group, and that the only way you managed to curb this nightmare menace of impossibility was through teamwork.

Let me tell you what imbalance really is. If you had presented this arguement with actual evidence showing your organized unit being absolutely decimated, over and over and over again, by another organized group that didn't even lose their kodiaks, despite having some of the best pilots you believe to possess, as well as a slew of games of IS pugs fighting Clan pugs that used this exact same tactic and having the same results, I really couldn't have argued you then. You didn't do that though.
Instead, you posted one instance of one team doing this tactic and failing at it then created a strawman arguement about how IS pugs would be completely halpless in the same scenario. Can you see exactly why I not only disagree with your poorly presented point, but how I also don't believe your intention ISN'T to nerf kodiaks further? If PGI actually listens to you, they won't buff the various nerfed IS mechs, they'll just gut the kodiak even more, because they have NEVER reversed their decision to buff a mech they once nerfed.

I could show you a multitude of instances were we lost to comp teams running full Kodiak first waves but it's so rare to have combat id this time around I too a screen shot. At first it was sporadic kodiaks then it turned into full 12 man Kodiak drops.

And yes I'm not sure why your not grasping this but to continue to nerf IS to to put is at an already alarming disadvantage like seriously guy, your a jade falcon have you experienced a 12 Kodiak drop? Like on sulfur it's devastating never in all the years I've played the game has a Mets shaken the game play to the core where you push in through the gates and your first two mech instantly vaporize. Teamwork will always be OP in any situation if the team we had fought had actually had focus fire we would have lost... they didn't and we won. Had that same 12 kodiaks been in the hands of say
228 a team that has tight focus fire we would have been utterly destroyed.

I *don't want to troll you, but if you think IS casual players has any solution for this your sadly mistaken. The fact of the matter is the clan casuals have kodiak no need for skill here.

And secondly don't call for a nerf I call for them to STOP nerfing IS and take a hard look at the game meta. If I had the blk Knights from 5 months ago this would have been a non issue. Dude I challenge you to make a alt IS account and drop right now, right now get in the FW que jump back on here and share your experience

Edited by Spider00x, 04 August 2016 - 06:52 PM.

[xX PUG Xx]

Gerwig, on 04 August 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

i'll reiterate, the unit with the highest w/l ratio in cw(11+) came to IS and got their face kicked in repeatedly. Game isn't balanced

Yeah, I was surprised they had such a hard time of it TBH and I do agree that the overall balance was closer two patches ago.

Spider00x, on 04 August 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

It's all good pug and I love you brother you've dropped with us and you know we're not scrubs but someone had to make this post or at least make the argument. IS is beat down and knocked down at the moment when it's not getting hammered from long tom it's getting murdered by kodiaks this debate needed to be had esp. Coming from one of the last prime time IS comp teams. Thank God we had combat ID so I could take the screen shot to show people in living color this threat is real and is not going away anytime soon.

Im just trying to send a message; Stop nerfing IS PGI christ, if this some some kinda way to weed out quirks to balance IS for the power draw then say that Russ cause it's bleak as hell right now playing IS.

Yeah agreed on the "nerf" of IS and as you say it may be linked to the new system but that won't change teams bringing dropdecks with X,Y,Z and using them to crush "skittle" teams. I guess having a solo only queue (not the unit / non-unit one) would have helped here but I got the feeling Russ/PGI wouldn't entertain it.

As for you and your lads, don't put too much credit in what random players on the Internets think of you. You know you have the skill and drive and those of us that have dropped with or against you know it too, just keep in mind "It's only a game, it's only a game, it's only a........that's it! I'm gonna shoot 'em in the rear hip actuator, then T-Bag 'em with a Commando!!"

Edited by xX PUG Xx, 04 August 2016 - 06:25 PM.

[Gaudium]

Spider00x, on 04 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

I could show you a multitude of instances were we lost to comp teams running full Kodiak first waves but it's so rare to have combat id this time around I too a screen shot. At first it was sporadic kodiaks then it turned into full 12 man Kodiak drops.

And yes I'm not sure why your not grasping this but to continue to nerf IS to to put is at an already alarming disadvantage like seriously guy, your a jade falcon have you experienced a 12 Kodiak drop? Like on sulfur it's devastating never in all the years I've played the game has a Mets shaken the game play to the core where you push in through the gates and your first two mech instantly vaporize. Teamwork will always be OP in any situation if the team we had fought had actually had focus fire we would have lost... they didn't and we won. Had that same 12 kodiaks been in the hands of say
228 a team that has tight focus fire we would have been utterly destroyed.

I *don't want to troll you, but if you think IS casual players has any solution for this your sadly mistaken. The fact of the matter is the clan casuals have kodiak no need for skill here.

And secondly don't call for a nerf I call for them to STOP nerfing IS and take a hard look at the game meta. If I had the blk Knights from 5 months ago this would have been a non issue. Dude I challenge you to make a alt IS account and drop right now, right now get in the FW que jump back on here and share your experience

It's pretty convenient that you don't have any evidence to support your blanket statement that is rife with IS bias and presumption. You mean I don't just accept your base claims at face value? God forbid I demand that a statement has a shred of credibility to back it up.

I'm pretty surprised you missed my point entirely in your next response. Let me spell it out to you: The heart of the problem that is why people don't play Faction Play doesn't rest on one single chassis of a mech. If this had been the case then when the Clan invested player base had screamed for the nerfs and vice versa for rebalancing of quirks/mechs/mechanics then it would have prevented the current state of Faction Play, but it has NOT. PGI has time and time again catered to the demands of players in situations such as what you are doing right now and we are still no better off than where we were previously. The kodiak and the build you put as example in your OP has been nerfed already, nerfing further won't make the player population come back, it will only cause frustration to the Clan invested based player population which will in turn cause them to demand compensation over IS players with their bias.

We're not discussing hypothetical situations between 'what-ifs' between your unit and other units, we're discussing with what you presented in your contradictory evidence that doesn't support your point in the least. If anything it showed just how fallacious your statement was because from the screenshot you put, it was your 9 man organized unit sprinkled with 3 random people, vs an equal 9 man organized unit sprinkled with randoms, yet despite fielding in large numbers such a "superior, no skill, imbalanced" mech chassis, you guys still managed to beat them. I don't doubt your tactics, strategy, choice of mechs, and level of skill all had a factor in your victory, but you cannot assume that your opponents were just simply inferior, because you have no metric to measure them to yourselves. Inversely, if the kodiak really is such a mech that is so vastly imbalanced that requires only a scant amount of basic knowledge to win with, how could they not have won against you despite having such a tremendous technologic advantage on their side?

Also, again, your erroneous presumption and willful ignorance of the fact that, despite in me being Jade Falcon presently, also means I'm a merc and have faced off in IS pugs under various IS contracts against numerous fights against both organized and clan pugs in the defense of various planets. However that is irrelevant to your point and simply ad hominem, that doesn't invalidate my responses, none of which you have been able to respond beyond personal IS bias, with no tangible evidence to support your claims. On that point, considering that I also belong to a small unit of a maximum of 5 members (only 3 of which reliably participate) I fall more under the scope of being an IS pug than you, in being so I do not need/want you using my personal experiences in Faction Play to boost your flawed stance on watering down the game.

Even if your intent truly isn't to nerf the kodiak, the only purpose that this thread will serve, is that PGI (if they do take this into consideration, which God almighty help us if they do.) they will just gut the kodiak further. Again, they're not going to rebuff the mechs they've already nerfed. If you wanted to really tell PGI that they should stop nerfing IS mechs, then just say, "PGI stop nerfing these mechs", instead of using a scapegoat as a measure of what is imbalanced, especially when it isn't even the cause of what you're claiming.

[MortZA]

That's a lot of Kodiaks. I think my record was about 6 KDK3, and 1-2 SBs.

They suicided once they ran out of ammo on our 3rd wave.

Maybe Zapp Brannigan was on to something.

[Stormie]

Spider00x, on 04 August 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

. I'm assuming their members all naught kodiaks for a reason an expensive mech pack because it produces results. They are a classic example of a team hoping to be carried by the technology.

I think you need to think about other possible reasons... you were fighting a group of Ghost Bear Loyalists. the Kodiak is like THE Ghost Bear mech if there was one mech that all ghost bear loyalists were likely to play it'd be the KDK. the majority of those guys bought the mech before we saw what the final properties of it were/it was even confirmed as being good.

[Pat Kell]

Gerwig, on 04 August 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

The Unit with the highest W/L ratio in FP (11+ last time I checked) came to IS and got it's face kicked in repeatedly. Should I really need to say more?

As per Cmetz, putting a 100 ton mech in a clan drop deck doesn't have the same effect as IS, because the lighter clan mechs vs lighter IS mechs is where the biggest imbalance exists.

This is major exacerbated by the ability to boat streak srm6s. If we run 100 ton mechs then we are forced to run 1-2 mechs that can be virtually 1-2 shotted by heavy and medium mechs w/out having to aim mind you.

Now lets also factor in that the clan superweapon has a range of 390, outdistancing the optimal range of every IS weapon save a handful.

Streak range needs to be nerfed. If this cannot be seen I do not know what to say.

Call this whining if you will but we are not trying to whine. We discussed just switching to clan instead of dealing with it, but we realize that will not be healthy for the game. The imbalance of units and pugs and overall active population is already bad enough. We like the competition. We don't want to play pugs all night. We just want a more level playing field. Don't say we don't play both sides so we don't know. We have clan mechs. We play them in quickplay. After the dropping of the kodiak and the last few rounds of nerfs, the balance has tipped by a bit.

Just for the record, we got beat by some teams, never really got our teeth kicked in (except maybe once or twice on Boreal...God I hate that map with IS mechs). Also, we came into this after a LONG stretch of playing clan mechs and had built playstyles and strategies based on Clan strengths. I made the horrible mistake of trying to carry that playstyle into IS mechs and that worked against their strengths, plus we had some people not quite willing to get on board. What I will say is that we are much better as clans because it fits our playstyle perfectly but I think that if we ever go IS again, we will prep and plan for it much better so that we go into it ready to play to the strengths of the IS mechs.

I agree that clans are stronger than IS mechs right now when you look at the range and speed advantage that they typically have but pointing out that we got beat as IS and using that to justify the claim that Clans are OP is not really the whole story(Also, streaks pretty much negate the usefulness of IS lights which is a big, possibly biggest problem. There are ways around it by not bringing lights but then you start facing tons of Kodiaks with heavy mechs and it can easily take 2 waves to clear out that first one and then the rest of the match is an uphill battle). As clans, we routinely beat teams that typically have trouble only with us, yet when we fought clan teams that I kept hearing were beatable, we would struggle or lose. I think experience had a huge part in that. If we had stayed IS longer, we may have been able to adjust our style to get better but honestly, there were other issues that had to be dealt with first.

So, clans I feel have an advantage to some degree (not as much as some claim, but it is there) but when it comes to piloting IS vs clan mechs, experience will play a much bigger factor in my opinion, even if you take a supposedly good team and stick them in IS mechs, it's not guaranteed that they will do well if they don't have the experience of playing to those mechs strengths. Which we did not.

Edited by Pat Kell, 05 August 2016 - 02:26 AM.

[Fuerchtenichts]

Gerwig, on 04 August 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

i'll reiterate, the unit with the highest w/l ratio in cw(11+) came to IS and got their face kicked in repeatedly. Game isn't balanced

To be honest, I would exactly expect that playing comp vs comp. The tactics you optimized for your mech hangar don't work playing the other faction. So you have to learn and adjust.

The only thing I would expect is, that a merc Unit would step up faster than a typical loyalist Unit.

[Pat Kell]

Gerwig, on 04 August 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

i'll reiterate, the unit with the highest w/l ratio in cw(11+) came to IS and got their face kicked in repeatedly. Game isn't balanced

I'll reiterate, while IS, we played 6 or 8 matches (sorry, wasn't keeping close track) against other 10 to 12 man teams that beat us. They did not kick our faces in but they beat us. There were 1-2 games that I remember where we fought what appeared to be a pug team that beat us.

And again, we didn't lose because clans are as OP as some might thing (I think they are slightly more powerful than IS mechs), we got beat because we tried to play IS mechs like we play clan mechs and it is just didn't work. We didn't plan very well for the move, we didn't really have effective drop decks planned out and ended up trying several different strategies that didn't pan out. That and some of the disagreement on how we should be playing within the unit led to our losses. Clans being OP was the least of our problem. We actually won a majority of our matches and only remember losing maybe 10 to 12 total over the 3 weeks we were Steiner.

In short, try not to jump to conclusions about why any particular unit lost as there are often things going on that you may not be aware of.

[Fuerchtenichts]

Spider00x, on 04 August 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

Given the performance levels of clan medium mechs it is incredibly difficult to come back and push to victory if you loose the first 2 rounds I play 4 hours of cw a night with 100s of games under my belt if you think for one min inner sphere casual or solo players can over come this and still win your wrong and the FW map shows it. The simple solution honestly is to light rush them, but again that takes coordination so we're back to my earlier argument which is pugs cannot win vs a drop deck like this.

Just to paint it black and white....

• Experienced players
  
• Teamplay
  
• Combat style VOIP communication
  
• "Full" Mech Hangar offering all possible tactical options
  
• Meta fittings
  
• 99% skill optimized Mechs
  
• Personal attitude to learn from mistakes

VS

• Mixed experience level of players
  
• "Rambo" playing style
  
• "VOIP is meant for insulting my team mates"
  
• "What's wrong bringing four TRIAL Mechs to FP?"
  
• "LURM RULZ"
  
• "XP and modules what's that?"
  
• "Blame big Units / Mercs/ OP Mechs/ my team mates/ etc. for defeat"

= no chance to be balanced

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 05 August 2016 - 03:21 AM.