114 replies to this topic

[WANTED]

Every time I see this I think of the GI JOE psa parody from years back " Help Computer...stop all the downloadin' " but I see " stop all the Gen Rushin! "

[Baulven]

TWIAFU, on 09 August 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

Wait, what?

"Good competition"? You mean Kodiaks first drop, then crutch crows, then Jenner IIc, and maybe Hunchbacks? You got the ironic part right, shown a great example of it.

Yep, you are crying about getting beat by better teams and now it is cheese to actually take out gens and omega. You cry too when people win by objectives in QP/GQ too?

Maybe you should learn to defend your base better?

I don't know who and when you are dropping against but that is a drop deck I have never seen. Most of our guys run kdk of choice EBJ, ACH and either a nova or a stormcrow.

[exiledangel]

i see how clans would get upset after losing a battle in under 12 min the clans would consider that unit dezgra becaue they failed in defending the objective. and were out smarted by mere freeborn warrior of the inner sphere. In Lore those dezgra warrior would be relocated to second line units or soloma or even worse nanny's babysitting the next generation of warrior lol

[Baulven]

Revis Volek, on 10 August 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

According to PGI it is not, which is why they have done so much to make it harder, like Turrets, Casings on the 0-Gens, putting a cover on Omega and the cannon.


PGI has said time and time again that isnt how they wanted to mode played. Same goes for hiding in your spawn and using the Dropship Aim bots as a 13th player on your team.

PGI has said time and time again they dont want the game played like this but time and time again they fail miserably at trying to stop it.

Playing a mode to win is not our fault i agree there. IF thats how your win thats how you play but its pretty lame IMO. We are here to fight each other, whats the point of the other team if we are just going to ignore them and rush? Might as well play against AI all together in defense mode if thats the case.





This can be said for almost any mech in the game, 12 of the same mechs plays hell on targeting for starters.

TBR's arent the only mechs in the game which can gen rush, you are right.

If they want to stop gen rushing may I suggest a game mode that has depth? 48v48 TDM is not what comes to mind when I hear faction warfare in Battletech without having an actual robust and intricate set of objectives.

Hell even in the books fighting was the means to an end. If they could do things without killing everything on the field they took it. Destroying what you would get as spoils is wasteful.

[Terrorsdawn]

If PGI doesn't want gen rushes they should not have of made the game to have one game mode only where the gen rush is a viable tactic. Multiple objectives, multiple win conditions, multiple styles of maps selectable spawn points spread out are all things that could have helped in reducing the problem.

Instead PGI has waisted a lot of time to by adding in ridiculous things like gen covers and many other things to fix bad choices they made from the start. Time that could have been used to enrich and grow the game.

Don't complain about the tactic, complain about the choices that were made and lack of growth in the game by PGI.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

If PGI doesn't want gen rushes they should not have of made the game to have one game mode only where the gen rush is a viable tactic. Multiple objectives, multiple win conditions, multiple styles of maps selectable spawn points spread out are all things that could have helped in reducing the problem.

Gen rush is viable, even now after HP increases and shroud coverage because the defenders generally are not moving far enough forward to initiate contact with Innersphere forces, expecting a poke/hide game like the QP.

One of the more important factors of gen rush is speed, the ability to actually reach the gens quickly. IF the defenders do not engage early enough and have not communicated to leg the attackers, the gen rush will succeed. If the attackers can not move far enough, quickly enough then the gens can not be taken out effectively.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 August 2016 - 02:19 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Dunk the attacks, flip the planet. Stop to farm on the holds.

When the other side is ghosting you 1 drop in 3 or 4 you need to flip wins as fast as you can. Especially for the IS when you've often got 2 full drops of suicide pugs gleefully losing 90% of their matches you have to win matches faster than they're losing them.

[Dawnstealer]

Revis Volek, on 10 August 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

This can be said for almost any mech in the game, 12 of the same mechs plays hell on targeting for starters.

TBR's arent the only mechs in the game which can gen rush, you are right.

My point about the TBRs is that they're fast, they have enough armor to make them relatively hard to take down, and they carry enough firepower to drop gens and omega in a single wave - it's very hard to kill them fast enough to prevent it. Especially when they can do it in successive waves. And then a Ebon Jag wave...if Omega isn't popped by then, you're either up against an elite 12-man or your team is REALLY bad.

I'm not saying "CLAMS ARE CHEATING PLSNERF," I'm saying it's a bad game design that Clan players are taking advantage of with arguably the strongest mech in the game, historically.

[iLLcapitan]

Genrushes are only annoying if it could have been a good fight, rare enough.
Hate it when a good team does it.
Admire it when the underdogs snatch the victory by doing it, seriously, some teams just don't got that many good shots, what are they supposed to do? If they manage to snatch gens while beeing the clearly inferior team, they got my respect.

[Tarl Cabot]

The only way I can see PGI doing something to stop pure gen rushes/kill very little in its current setting would be to make the gens indestructible til x-amount of mechs have been destroyed, x-amount of time has passed or both. I put generic mechs since PGI could make it just defenders, attackers or a combo of both.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 August 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

They really just need to have more HP.
Each gen should have more HP than the enemy team, so it would be more efficient to clear the battlefield and work on gens between waves.

In a perfect world, the gens would have enough HP that you would want to work on gens between waves instead of just pushing the spawn, in fear of not having time to destroy them if you just farm mechs and wait to hit gens in the end.

[Leone]

You do realize they already designed it so that the gens could only be fired upon from certain angles, yes? No more exposed gens sitting on the ground ready to be rushed. The trick to stopping a gen rush is to defend the approaches to those angles. Yes, if they're not shooting the gens then they're likely shooting you, but if the enemy can shoot you, then, by virtue of the whole line o sight thing, you may also shoot them.

There is a stated objective in Invasion mode. Work with it.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 11 August 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Leone, on 11 August 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

You do realize they already designed it so that the gens could only be fired upon from certain angles, yes? No more exposed gens sitting on the ground ready to be rushed. The trick to stopping a gen rush is to defend the approaches to those angles. Yes, if they're not shooting the gens then they're likely shooting you, but if the enemy can shoot you, then, by virtue of the whole line o sight thing, you may also shoot them.

There is a stated objective in Invasion mode. Work with it.

~Leone.

~Leone,
Yes, I do realize that... but I really think you're missing the forest for the trees here.
When I came back to this game, some about 8 months ago, your forum posts and comments helped a lot in getting me acclimated back into the game.. So I will reply to you specifically with the utmost respect.

You do realize that the skill ceiling for gen rushing is very very low, yes? Teams that cannot win Defenses or Counter Attacks, can win on Attacks by just gen rushing.

Alternately, the burden of skill in defending a gen rush is disproportionately high in this one specific game mode, because one gen rushing wave can easily seal the deal for the entire match. It requires not only that ability to take down 12 mechs much quicker, but also prior knowledge that you are going to be gen rushed in the first place based purely on past experience with units that crutch on it.

If we're talking about overall game balance, this is a problem, and we need to be intellectually honest with ourselves and each other.

Now, one could argue that the ability to gen rush serves as a proverbial 'noob tube' so even new and less skilled players/units can compete and feel like they can win sometimes, and that would be a decent argument.. but I don't believe encouraging cheese tactics is good for the balance or fun factor of the game mode.

What do you accomplish with gen rushing? You end the game early, with everyone getting less play time, loyalty, and cbills. Then everyone goes back to Queue to wait for another drop. It's just not good for the game mode.


The solutions to this are simple:

A. Increase Hitpoints of Gens and Omega- because now they melt like butter.
B. Repair Gens in between waves- to allow a second breath after a devastating gen rush.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 12 August 2016 - 11:01 AM.

[Leone]

Okay, Fair enough. Coming back to it, I can see the snark there. Thanks for calling me out on it.

I'll try and explain properly. First off, my point of view. My unit does not gen rush so much as we shoot Mechs, turrets and gens, in that order, and sometimes all in one wave, if, say we want to get one last drop in before ceasefire to clinch a world, or if say, a fourth of the enemy team isn't engaging but ran back to their spawn and we know another fight may be waiting for us on defense. It has happened, and so when I think of gen rushing, I would assume someone would do as we do, but just prioritize gens more.

And I get it. We are a force to be reckoned with.

I've also seen worlds kept because pug teams didn't get the memo and kept defending their gens. Yes, we won, but by virtue of constantly returning and engaging, we were unable to quickly finish the fight. Even though they didn't win, I've seen other teams put up enough of a fight we couldn't clear turrets till wave three, coming out behind in the clashes, but still willing to meet us on the field of battle before we got to the gens, forcing us to deal with them until the match was over.

As an example,

Spoiler

I remember one match where we were attacking Hellebore springs, and we were soo close to taking or losing the planet and nearing ceasefire (back in the 'ole fourty minute days.) that the call was made to wipe the gens wave one and get another drop.

Our opposition, a classical pug team, set up in the usual spot right around omega. Normally one can clear the mechs an take out turrets and work on gens whilest the enemy regroups. Maybe a few of us trade shots to keep em back and buy time. As mentioned, these pugs didn't get the memo. They fought hard, got a few kills in (maybe six before they lost the first wave) and then came out in force and kept up the pressure on our survivors.

Mebbe they saw us shooting gens and thought 'not on my watch', they might've had a few stalwart defenders to lead the push an bolster their morale. I really cannot recall.

Next wave, they met us at the gates and sold their wounded mechs dearly. Now, we'd already done a number on a few of the gens, but by virtue of meeting us at the gates, the defenders were able to sally forth an meet our injured second wave mechs with their reinforcements at omega. In the end, fresh mechs against injured mechs, the numbers might've been in our favour, but at that time, on our third wave, we weren't sure we had time to make another drop. So, we decided to just rush Omega.

Wave three. We fought our way through em and tried clearing Omega, and our timing couldn't've been worse. Just as their first reinforcements were coming in with their last mechs, a few skirmishers who'd been pulled back rejoined the fight. I distinctly remember the call to focus omega, and then the enemy just walked out en masse an opened fire. Constant fire from multiple mechs who don't fear reprisal? That was a shooting gallery of impressive proportions, a race between our side focusing omega and them focusing us down. They held omega until our fourth wave

So, when I say it can be countered, I admit we were not doing a full on, ignore mechs, down omega rush the whole time, save for that second half of our third wave. But when we did? Oh, it was a slaughter.

We fought em to the last, at that point, cease fire already starting, and even though omega was nearly gone, they'd earned it. We pulled out the win some 25 minutes into the game and when ceasefire was done, the planet stayed theirs, by virtue of one map tick, a counter attack retaken during ceasefire without us being able to drop on attack to counter to balance it out.

By defending forwards, at the gates of Hellebore for instance, you buy enough time that even if your first wave goes down to a mech, whilest your enemy is just started working on the turrets, your reinforcements are dropping and ready to defend.

Some maps are harder'n other true. But you hafta be aggressive on defense if you plan on countering aggressive strategies. As long as you place your mechs forward of the target, you buy time for your reinforcements to continue the job. The enemy literally has to go through you to get what they want. and if your far enough forward, an/or your team is able to hold em long enough, you can do it again.

~Leone

Edited by Leone, 12 August 2016 - 08:55 PM.

[meteorol]

It's an easy win, especially against pugs.

And some poeple having fun waiting 15 minutes to run past everything and get shot for 3 minutes. They should try the mechwarrior academy gauntlet mode. They can run past targets without shooting back there all day long.

[Pat Kell]

feeWAIVER, on 12 August 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

The solutions to this are simple:

A. Increase Hitpoints of Gens and Omega- because now they melt like butter.
B. Repair Gens in between waves- to allow a second breath after a devastating gen rush.

I agree with the idea of increasing gen and omega health as it's frustrating as all get out to lose a match and the score is very lopsided in your favor. I am a little dubious about repairing them in between waves though. Maybe they could get a timer...if they don't get hit in 5 minutes or something, they start to regain health/get repaired, but that still seems like a bit much. Like A, dubious about B.

[CMetz]

It may seem ludicrous.... but what if they increased the number of o-gens to say 7, scattered them around the map, and only made three of them open per invasion. It could increase the usage of lights for scouting, and it would deter attacking teams from taking a pre-planned route around the o-gens. I'm just spitballing here, but anything that could make the FP battlefield more dynamic would seem to be a good option.

[Fake News]

or maybe just defend them?

[MaxFool]

Give gens and omega lots more hit points, like maybe double, but have them lose percentage of hit points for every defending mech that is killed. That way it will be much harder, and impractical, to try to wipe it out on first or second wave if the defenders are actually defending and not camping at spawn. If in the end if there are just couple of surviving attackers they can still kill gens and omega without it taking too long time at that point.

If the defenders are so inept they still lose gens and omega on first or second wave, increase rewards for attackers substantially. Now it doesn't pay much to gen rush, which is ok since it really is not a hard tactic to employ, but if you make it hard to do then the reward should be substantial too.

[RaptorCWS]

This really seems like a complaint that FP is not team deathmatch and that you are upset that you lost because you failed to defend the objective. Its the equivalent of the team getting upset in conquest because they never capped a location. That being said I could get behind some TDM maps and game types being added to FP.