121 replies to this topic

[Yellonet]

PhoenixFire55, on 08 August 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

I would support the OP message if tiers actually meant anything ...

My position is that if we get to see these things, perhaps more people will realize that derp players exist in every tier, and as such changes could be done to make tiers reflect skill in a higher degree.

I quite often have bad games, and I don't really want to blame others but.... I feel as if I had more teammates that understood the game, positioning, taking advantage of openings, supporting each other, listening to the players that communicate... I would have fewer bad games.

We just need to nag on PGI to alter how PSR changes. It should be a fairly easy change, and I can't see how it would hurt anyone. Basically, T1 should be the top 20% average scoring players. T2 should be the 20% below T1 and so on.

[Yellonet]

Ace Selin, on 08 August 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

I think your yearly income should be displayed at the end of each match and also how many mech packs you have purchased.
This is purely to judge peoples relative worth to the game and whether everyone is paying their way with regards to the games wellbeing.

I take it that your witty comment means that you oppose the idea of public tier? Furthermore, your "suggestion" have no relevance in the game so that would be quite useless.
Tiers do have some relevance, although it should be more closely tied to skill that it currently is.

[PhoenixFire55]

Yellonet, on 08 August 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

My position is that if we get to see these things, perhaps more people will realize that derp players exist in every tier, and as such changes could be done to make tiers reflect skill in a higher degree.

It is obvious. Who are these "more people" that are supposed to realize this? PGI devs can see everyones tiers anyway but they don't give a damn to begin with, so ...

Yellonet, on 08 August 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

We just need to nag on PGI to alter how PSR changes. It should be a fairly easy change, and I can't see how it would hurt anyone. Basically, T1 should be the top 20% average scoring players. T2 should be the 20% below T1 and so on.

People are doing this since they announced how PSR works. Look at the amount of MM related topics on this forum. Do they actually read any of this? LOL ... dream on.
Your best bet would be to spam mr.Opinons.Don't.Matter^TM on his Twitter.

[dario03]

MacClearly, on 07 August 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

It's not unreasonable to use someone's Tier to judge what they are saying. Tier four or five players are either new or terrible. There experience outside of the game is irrelevant.

I am six months into the game and if I see a player giving advice who is either hiding his Tier or is a four or five, I know not to waste my time reading what they have to say. You may not like this way of thinking, but I know exactly what is in Tier four and five. It absolutely makes sense to learn from people who are at least doing alright or understand the game enough to progress through the system.

I think it would work better if we knew amount of games played as well. Somebody that is T3 after only playing for a bit could be pretty good but just hasn't played enough to move up. Could also be that they used to play a lot but took a break right before PSR and just recently came back. But if somebody has tons of games since PSR and is still T3 then yeah they might need work. Though even then its possible that they understand the game but can't apply it for whatever reason (though probably not a lot of people like that).
Though being T1 doesn't prove that they are really good or anything since the system is set up to move players up. So just being decent will get you to T1 if you play a lot of games.
And of course it wouldn't apply to anyone hiding their tier since then you just don't know. They could be any tier.

Edited by dario03, 08 August 2016 - 03:40 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Not buying the "XP bar" thing.

If I make an alt accaunt I get to tier 3 in just a few matches.

And yet there are tier 4 and 5 players with hundreds and thousands of matches played, if it was just an XP bar it wouldn't be possible for them to stay in those low tiers.

A bias towards an increase is a problem I agree, but it doesn't really translate to an XP bar, it's more complicated than that.

What it does is rather move the entire bell curve a step towards the higher tiers, meaning that players that should cap out in tier 3 get to tier 2, those who should be tier 2 wrongly get to tier 1, and the ones who should actually be the only ones in tier 1 gets placed outside/above the curve with no real measurement to put them apart from the rest.

That's a huge problem, because it devalues the higher tiers, but you can still gather some information from them. So when you see a tier 1 player you can still pretty reliably assume he would be tier 3-1 even in a zero sum system. If you see a tier 4 or 5 player that has played more than 10 matches you can reliably assume they are new or bad.

What we don't have because of the bias to increase is any way of telling whether tier 1 players are really good or just decent, that sucks.

[PhoenixFire55]

Sjorpha, on 08 August 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

Not buying the "XP bar" thing.

If I make an alt accaunt I get to tier 3 in just a few matches.

And yet there are tier 4 and 5 players with hundreds and thousands of matches played, if it was just an XP bar it wouldn't be possible for them to stay in those low tiers.

Because its an XP bar for average and above players. The "biased towards PSR raise" thing will by design automatically move you upwards if you are an absolute average. Thats why being T1 nowadays means nothing, while same time NOT being T1 at this point says quite a lot.

[PyckenZot]

Yellonet, on 06 August 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

I know I've asked for this before when the tier system was introduced, but I still would like it to be introduced.

When the match is over I'd like to see everybody's tier, team mates as well as enemies.
This would work just as in CS:GO where you after a match get too see the rank of all other players, this so that you can judge your own and the teams performance as well as review how the MM set you up.

There is no reason to allow players to hide their tiers when they play the game.
We already have public info on all players (the leaderboard) which could be considered far more sensitive than just the tier.

So, PGI, please make us see everybody's tier after the match!

For starters, Tiers means near to nothing. Asking to see them tells me a lot already.

And because of the prior reason, there is no need to display it publicly at all.

Enjoy the game, learn from losses, see how YOU can play better. I have no doubt that showing tiers in the end of match will result in anything but good. People will be get extra motivation to rage against the high tier player having a bad drop, there will be rage against the low level player that performed badly et cetera, et cetera,...

MWO population is very civil and nice as compared to other games. Let's keep it that way!

Take you e-peen stroking elsewhere please.

Edited by PyckenZot, 08 August 2016 - 03:48 AM.

[Yellonet]

I think one have to be truly abysmal at this game if you stay in T5 or T4... I'm not a great player by any means, losing about as much as I win and having my share of derp games, but I'll still probably be in T1 pretty soon...

[Yellonet]

This thread illustrates quite well why it is likely difficult for PGI to listen to the community; we can almost never agree on anything.

-"Tiers don't matter at all, it's just an XP bar!"

-"Tiers do matter, it's a clear difference between different tiers!"

[Bud Crue]

I'm T3. I should be T6, maybe T7. What good does it do to advertise my supposed "average skill" of T3, when I am anything but average?

Seriously...
In re mechs: I rarely play meta builds, I rarely play min/max builds even. My mech building goals are usually focused on using all the hardpoints and all the crit spaces and being symmetrical or aesthetically pleasing. Often I play super-stock. Just because.
In re tech: I play on a potato, and I have yet to figure out how to use more than three of the buttons on my fancy mouse...which makes playing mechs with lots of different weapons difficult.
In re skill: I have the twitch skills of an arthritic sloth, I always play from the front and have real difficulty not being the first to engage no matter what mech I am driving. While I do know how to twist I usually die quickly because everyone is focusing on me because I am stupid and out in front of the rest of the team.

You getting the point here?

I am am far worse of a player than even my "average" indicator of T3 would suggest , yet there it is. How does advertising that tier in game in inform my teamates or even enemies what kind of a player I am. It doesn't. Nor does the T1 designation of players I know who hide in the back and wait for the rest of the team to take all the damage for them so that they can go in and harvest kills. Nor doe the t5 designation of a coulple CW players I know who have been playing for years and only played QP once or twice.

If they made tier display mandatory, it certainly wouldn't bug me, but it just seems to me that this is one more feature that we don't need, is poorly implemented (how's the match maker working for you of late? what's your CW tier?) and is just another thing for PGI to muck with so as to avoid bringing any actual content or substantive improvements to the game.

[Yellonet]

PyckenZot, on 08 August 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

For starters, Tiers means near to nothing. Asking to see them tells me a lot already.

Take you e-peen stroking elsewhere please.

OK.... so why do you show your tier in the forums?

[Ace Selin]

Yellonet, on 08 August 2016 - 03:54 AM, said:

This thread illustrates quite well why it is likely difficult for PGI to listen to the community; we can almost never agree on anything.

-"Tiers don't matter at all, it's just an XP bar!"

-"Tiers do matter, it's a clear difference between different tiers!"

Its actually ................

Tiers don't matter until they do & it's just an XP bar until it shows a clear difference between different tiers!

Edited by Ace Selin, 08 August 2016 - 03:58 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Xocoyol Zaraoul, on 06 August 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Tier is an XP bar though that inevitably increases.

[...]

Thats outright wrong.
You don't just collect XP and level inevitably up.
Points get added and substracted to your PSR (player skill rating) depending on your matchperformance.
I got up to T3 pretty fast and now I'm stuck there.
Sometimes I got a winning spree with some good matches and then I loose 20 or more in a row and get ranked down again.

[PyckenZot]

Yellonet, on 08 August 2016 - 03:56 AM, said:

OK.... so why do you show your tier in the forums?

Because I said I would and I would have showed a T5 as well had I been there.

Back on topic: the point of your thread was tiers shown in game. Why bring up the forum?

[PyckenZot]

The Basilisk, on 08 August 2016 - 04:05 AM, said:

Thats outright wrong.
You don't just collect XP and level inevitably up.
Points get added and substracted to your PSR (player skill rating) depending on your matchperformance.
I got up to T3 pretty fast and now I'm stuck there.
Sometimes I got a winning spree with some good matches and then I loose 20 or more in a row and get ranked down again.

Tier is an experience bar strongly biased towards damage dealing experience.

If playing specifically to rise on the tiers, a player in a Golden Boy, or any other lurm boat, and not shooting buildings all the time, will on average rise on most of his losses and all of his wins and thus eventually get in T1 by playing nothing but missile spamming.

Edited by PyckenZot, 08 August 2016 - 04:19 AM.

[Jon McFuzzy]

if Tier doesn't mean so much, then why some people choose to use their low tier alternative account to get on event's leader board? Is it really ethical to do that?

Yes it does not represent the skill level, but still, apparently it means something ....

[PyckenZot]

Jon McFuzzy, on 08 August 2016 - 04:24 AM, said:

if Tier doesn't mean so much, then why some people choose to use their low tier alternative account to get on event's leader board? Is it really ethical to do that?

Yes it does not represent the skill level, but still, apparently it means something ....

OK, it does not literally mean nothing. (Playing a T5 match will show you that)

But seen that the system is made as such that most players would end up in T1 after enough games AND seen that the system can be manipulated so easily to rise quickly. It does make knowing someone's tier a useless knowledge. The high tier player might have earned his tier, or farmed his way there.

[Yellonet]

PyckenZot, on 08 August 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

Back on topic: the point of your thread was tiers shown in game. Why bring up the forum?

Because you accused me of e-peen stroking and said that tiers mean nothing. So as you assume the worst about me I'm going to assume that you show your tier 1 just off and get the upper hand in discussions.
So, now in typical forum manner we can go on thinking the worst of each other.
On the forum the tier really means nothing. In game there is at least some connection to the actual game.

[PyckenZot]

Yellonet, on 08 August 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

Because you accused me of e-peen stroking and said that tiers mean nothing. So as you assume the worst about me I'm going to assume that you show your tier 1 just off and get the upper hand in discussions.
So, now in typical forum manner we can go on thinking the worst of each other.
On the forum the tier really means nothing. In game there is at least some connection to the actual game.

Agreed. So then, do explain me what possible use could knowing the players tier after a match have to you. How will it improve how you play? I'm not being cynical here. I just can't think of a reason. Winning when on the side with most low level players will make one feel strong, Losing when on the side with most low level players will make one feel less bad. But what good does it really do?

Edited by PyckenZot, 08 August 2016 - 04:47 AM.

[Yellonet]

PyckenZot, on 08 August 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

Agreed. So then, do explain me what possible use could knowing the players tier after a match have to you. How will it improve how you play? I'm not being cynical here. I just can't think of a reason. Winning when on the side with most low level players will make one feel strong, Losing when on the side with most low level players will make one feel less bad. But what good does it really do?

It doesn't really make much good, just as showing how all the other players did after the game, but the tier would make far less bad than showing every players damage, kills and score as that is making people call out others already. Showing everyone's tier would just be an extra bit of info besides all the rest, "oh, that T4 guy got 3 kills and 600 damage while that T2 died with 250 damage and no kills... interesting".
The tier set the score, damage and kills after a match in context and perspective.
If tiers are not OK to show, how can all the rest be OK?