31 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

I recall that base turrets were added to Assault to stop Lights rushing straight to bases and capping them.

But then the turrets were removed.

What was the perceived problem with having turrets in Assault mode? Why were they removed?

[Naelbis]

Maps were/are too small so the turrets were hitting people halfway across the map.

[Appogee]

Naelbis, on 07 August 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

Maps were/are too small so the turrets were hitting people halfway across the map.

Soooo... now that the maps are bigger, can haz turretz back plz?

[Tordin]

As far as I recall, they were too powerful? Not too sure, bet there are someone else with a clearer memory about them than I.
Didnt mind the turrets though, they added an interesting element. Happy to see them back soon.

[Roughneck45]

I think it was their 100% accuracy against critical locations and their neigh invulnerability until you were danger close to them.

I remember being more terrified of turrets than players if a torso section was open.

Edited by Roughneck45, 07 August 2016 - 10:44 AM.

[FupDup]

They made Assault play even more like Skirmish than it normally did.

[Pjwned]

Turrets were removed because they essentially turned the mode into Skirmish, since literally nobody cared about trying to cap the base until after wiping out the enemy team. They were also the cause of ridiculous shenanigans on maps like Mining Colony and Caustic Valley.

Try actually defending your own base ever instead of crying about bringing turrets back maybe.

[martian]

Appogee, on 07 August 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

I recall that base turrets were added to Assault to stop Lights rushing straight to bases and capping them.

But then the turrets were removed.

What was the perceived problem with having turrets in Assault mode? Why were they removed?

Four main reasons:
1) They created zone around the base where nobody was especially eager to enter. So those turrets effectively "forced" player to battle in the center of the map, making small maps even smaller.
2) Their long range (if we talk about LRM turrets) made them hard to destroy, if your Light, Medium or Heavy 'Mech was configured for brawling. For example, ER Large Ravens had no big problems, but other short-ranged lights had sometimes difficulties, because they were bombarded from turrets that they couldn't destroy.
3) Those laser turrets were very accurate and targeted sections that lost armor, especially unprotected legs. So going near enemy base in damaged 'Mech often meant legging and in turn being destroyed by other laser and LRM turrets. Games sometimes ended as tie because we didn't dare to close in our remaining damaged 'Mechs to enemy base, and enemy didn't dare to attack our base in their damaged 'Mech.
4) LRM turrets always fired from the max range, were very accurate and they didn't seem to lose track even if you were behind hill or rock.

[Escef]

Appogee, on 07 August 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Soooo... now that the maps are bigger, can haz turretz back plz?

Not just no, but HELL, NO.

[Cy Mitchell]

They are supposed to be making a comeback in the new Assault mode.

Turrets worked in MWLL so they can work in MWO too.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Turrets ignored ECM with their LRMs, and people got upset when they ran their mechs in and got cored out from two turrets firing 2 medium lasers a piece into their back armor. Honestly I always liked the turrets as it gave a role to long range players when the enemy was hiding, they could work on clearing out the enemy base to help with the later segments of the match. Honestly turrets being removed turned Assault into skirmish which is what people wanted, hence the hate for Conquest and Domination.

Turrets did some key things for Assault, they helped push off mechs from camping your base, but, they weren't LL monsters like they are in CW which is good. Two Medium Lasers will cut through a mech if ignored and can seriously hurt an open mech. I would have been 100% fine if they had just removed the LRM's and gave them like an SRM 2 launcher instead.

Honestly Turrets even in CW now are borderline ignorable (mainly due to armor sharing with communicative players and focus fire) and in QP having them only have 2 US ML or even 2 IS MPL wouldn't break the Camels back in my book. It would just push people away and give an early warning system. Like, give turrets BAP, AMS, 2 MPL, and an SRM2. Hell, you could even give them their LRM's back but have them Dumb Fire. Like there is no need to go full Calliope Turret, but, make Turrets have the armament of a proper static defense, some long range support and some close range direct fire.

Like lets say we give each base six turrets, 1 for each compass direction and two on the base itself. The 4 compass direction ones would be 2 MPL on the right of the turret and 2 MG's on the Left with an SRM 2 in the middle (like a weird locust), good anti vehicle and anti infantry build. The two others would be 2 SL 1 LRM10 1 AMS + BAP turrets. This wouldn't be horribly powerful, but, would also be a deterrent. Give all their weapons cone of fire or no convergence, have them be more than happy to dumb fire LRM's at enemies as well. Give them proper paper dolls as well and even let players blow off weapons, which would be a step towards vehicles you can immobilize, turrets you can jam, and other stuff like that.

[JC Daxion]

I liked having them.. Made the mode a bit different, and they could also be used to augment defense too. I can recall many games falling back to base and then ending up winning



that said, I would love their return with one minor change.. Place 12 turrets, Every turret is connected to an active mech.. Every time a mech Dies, or is DC, one turret gets deactivated..


this makes an early base push harder, but can still leave the option to fall back to base for a slightly fortified position.. and late game with just one mech left or so, they are easy take downs as they should be.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Several reasons.

1) Whichever team decided to cower under the extremely accurate LRM turret cover had a market advantage and thus it discouraged aggressive play (particularly flanking from lights). Which is fine if the matches were balanced around that turret advantage but they weren't.

2) Basically no one ever capped. Which is still the case because capping is worth diddly. Baby bathwater kind of thing there tbh.

3) The turrets could hit enemies on about half the map on the smaller maps.

[Alistair Winter]

The sad part is that turrets were initially used to "give light mechs something fun to do" because role warfare. However... turrets were basically light mech killers due to their extreme accuracy, long range and perfect aim towards legs. Furthermore, the rewards were terrible and it generally wasn't worth the risk.

PGI could have done this:

• Nerf turrets by giving them non-guided SRMs instead of LRMs and making them fire against a random component each time (e.g. first your left arm, then your right torso, then your left leg, etc) except the head, and not giving them super-BAP which gave away enemy locations.
  
• Buff the income from killing turrets so that the damage taken by attacking them was actually worthwhile.

But they didn't. <shrugs>

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 07 August 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

The sad part is that turrets were initially used to "give light mechs something fun to do" because role warfare. However... turrets were basically light mech killers due to their extreme accuracy, long range and perfect aim towards legs.

Huh? Pretty much everyone who asked for turrets and/or rationalized their implementation wanted the latter rather than the former. It was the AssaultWarrior Whale Brigade that wanted turrets.

[Pjwned]

Rampage, on 07 August 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

They are supposed to be making a comeback in the new Assault mode.

I guarantee that Assault will turn into Skirmish even more than it was before with the proposed upcoming changes. If PGI wants to have fortified bases with turrets in quick play then it needs to be some sort of attack/defend mode.

Quote

Turrets worked in MWLL so they can work in MWO too.

The problem isn't really that turrets are inherently bad, although I didn't like the actual turrets very much either.

The main problem is that turrets don't fit in Assault because it turns the mode into a crapfest due to everybody ignoring the bases as objectives, which is stupid because you might as well be playing Skirmish at that point.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 07 August 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

Huh? Pretty much everyone who asked for turrets and/or rationalized their implementation wanted the latter rather than the former. It was the AssaultWarrior Whale Brigade that wanted turrets.

I know, but I'm pretty sure Russ / PGI told the players that turrets were there for light mechs to have something to do. "It'll be great, because now light mechs have a base to attack, so they can use their speed and mobility". I'm pretty sure that was the initial reason given for putting them in Assault in the first place, not because PGI wanted to protect people from capping. But yes, the AssaultWarriors definitely wanted them as protection from light mechs.

[Davers]

2 lrm10's and a couple medium lasers stagnated the whole game mode. New assault looks like it will add even more. I wonder what will happen.

[GRiPSViGiL]

There are many layers to this question that have been answered already in the replies but I wouldn't have any confidence PGI could re-implement them in a way that wouldn't have at least one or even a plethora of similar issues as before. Adding dynamic components to gameplay is not PGIs strong suit.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Alistair Winter, on 07 August 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

The sad part is that turrets were initially used to "give light mechs something fun to do" because role warfare. However... turrets were basically light mech killers due to their extreme accuracy, long range and perfect aim towards legs. Furthermore, the rewards were terrible and it generally wasn't worth the risk.

PGI could have done this:

• Nerf turrets by giving them non-guided SRMs instead of LRMs and making them fire against a random component each time (e.g. first your left arm, then your right torso, then your left leg, etc) except the head, and not giving them super-BAP which gave away enemy locations.
  
• Buff the income from killing turrets so that the damage taken by attacking them was actually worthwhile.

But they didn't. <shrugs>

That would be a bare bones fix compared to mine which was make it so only two turrets with LRM's existed and no super bap (making ECM more worth it). Actually, give them LRM5's so if anyone has AMS the LRM turrets are worthless with their 2xLRM5's instead of 1xLRM10. Main turrets though need to be 2xISMPL 1xSRM2 2xMG. It makes you want to take them out when only the MPL can hit you which most mechs will be able to do, those who can't should have enough DPS to knock out a turret. Give reward for doing damage to the turrets, give a big payout for blowing the turrets, and also make capturing worth as much as a conquest win. Incentivizing objective play is far better than penalizing ignoring objectives or doing non-objective play. Always the carrot, the stick just drives players away.