67 replies to this topic

[Grus]

Kiran Yagami, on 04 March 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

Got it. Good damage farm. Still won't melt people like a Vapor Eagle. There is no comparison between ATMs and MRMs. MRMs are the natural extension of the SRM. Still dumb fire, but slightly longer range, longer stream, but less damage per missile. ATM's aren't the natural extension of anything. They share nothing in common with other missiles. The arc is shallower than LRMs, but more than SSRMs, and have a damage variance based on range that has extreme fall off cliffs. There's nothing else like it.

I guess I just dont run into or dont have a issue with ATM boats like the rest of you. Especially the VE ones.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I have really been having a problem with how badly the Clans seem balanced right now myself. Right before they changed the heat scale I took a break and just came back about maybe 2 months ago and the one thing that became very apparent to me was that they have completely over-nerfed the clans at this point. I did a comparison in another thread of my Zeus-9S and Warhammer IIC-3 to illustrate my point mostly because I had built them with very similar laser-centric builds.

They have a 2 damage difference in alpha between them, yet in almost every way, the Zeus-9S came out superior. The Zeus' stats like acceleration, Deceleration, Turn Rate, Torso Twist Speed, etc were all 1.5-2.0 times the value of the Warhammer IIC-3 and while the Alpha damage potential was nearly the same, the Zeus-9S's alpha would only generate 48% on the heat scale as opposed to the Warhammer IIC-3, generating 78% on the heat scale with its alpha. I also determined that the Zeus-9S could output 186 damage before overheating while the Warhammer IIC could only produce 160.5 damage before overheating. What is ironic about this is my Zeus-9S only has 18 DHS while my Warhammer IIC-3 has a whopping 27 DHS. That is just how crazy hot Clan Weapons run, it is ridiculous. This doesn't even go into just how much more sustained fire you can output with the Zeus-9S due to it much easier to manage lower heat spikes or the fact that the Zeus-9S gets a very significant boot to its inner structure due to quirks. None of these differences are small numbers by the way.

Honestly, even if we took the mechs out of the equation and just looked at the weapons performance, the fact that the same laser alpha only generates 48% heat on a Zeus compared to 78% on a Warhammer IIC, the fact that the Zeus can get off 186 damage before overheating vs only 160.5 damage on the Warhammer IIC shows there are a few issues with weapons balance, mostly that Clan Weapons just generate way, way too much heat. This doesn't surprise me because they were tuned based on the fact DHS count used to increase your Heat Cap, but now that heat cap is static and DHS count only increases dissipation rate, Clan weapons are just way too hot.

[K O Z A K]

Angel of Annihilation, on 04 March 2019 - 09:55 AM, said:

I have really been having a problem with how badly the Clans seem balanced right now myself. Right before they changed the heat scale I took a break and just came back about maybe 2 months ago and the one thing that became very apparent to me was that they have completely over-nerfed the clans at this point. I did a comparison in another thread of my Zeus-9S and Warhammer IIC-3 to illustrate my point mostly because I had built them with very similar laser-centric builds.

They have a 2 damage difference in alpha between them, yet in almost every way, the Zeus-9S came out superior. The Zeus' stats like acceleration, Deceleration, Turn Rate, Torso Twist Speed, etc were all 1.5-2.0 times the value of the Warhammer IIC-3 and while the Alpha damage potential was nearly the same, the Zeus-9S's alpha would only generate 48% on the heat scale as opposed to the Warhammer IIC-3, generating 78% on the heat scale with its alpha. I also determined that the Zeus-9S could output 186 damage before overheating while the Warhammer IIC could only produce 160.5 damage before overheating. What is ironic about this is my Zeus-9S only has 18 DHS while my Warhammer IIC-3 has a whopping 27 DHS. That is just how crazy hot Clan Weapons run, it is ridiculous. This doesn't even go into just how much more sustained fire you can output with the Zeus-9S due to it much easier to manage lower heat spikes or the fact that the Zeus-9S gets a very significant boot to its inner structure due to quirks. None of these differences are small numbers by the way.

Honestly, even if we took the mechs out of the equation and just looked at the weapons performance, the fact that the same laser alpha only generates 48% heat on a Zeus compared to 78% on a Warhammer IIC, the fact that the Zeus can get off 186 damage before overheating vs only 160.5 damage on the Warhammer IIC shows there are a few issues with weapons balance, mostly that Clan Weapons just generate way, way too much heat. This doesn't surprise me because they were tuned based on the fact DHS count used to increase your Heat Cap, but now that heat cap is static and DHS count only increases dissipation rate, Clan weapons are just way too hot.

Your comparison is unfair. You've designed the 2 builds specifically for your point. Warhammer 2c isn't a particularly good laser mech, or mech in general. Your "laser-centric" zeus has as you said an MRM20, which accounts for a third of the firepower giving 20 spread damage for just 6 heat. Your clan vomit mech is a mix of what? HLL and MPL? nobody really uses that combination as it has horrible synergy

[Grus]

Hazeclaw, on 04 March 2019 - 01:04 PM, said:

Your comparison is unfair. You've designed the 2 builds specifically for your point. Warhammer 2c isn't a particularly good laser mech, or mech in general. Your "laser-centric" zeus has as you said an MRM20, which accounts for a third of the firepower giving 20 spread damage for just 6 heat. Your clan vomit mech is a mix of what? HLL and MPL? nobody really uses that combination as it has horrible synergy

Dat Zuse thunder fist though...

[Gas Guzzler]

Grus, on 04 March 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

Dat Zuse thunder fist though...

Which?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Hazeclaw, on 04 March 2019 - 01:04 PM, said:

Your comparison is unfair. You've designed the 2 builds specifically for your point. Warhammer 2c isn't a particularly good laser mech, or mech in general. Your "laser-centric" zeus has as you said an MRM20, which accounts for a third of the firepower giving 20 spread damage for just 6 heat. Your clan vomit mech is a mix of what? HLL and MPL? nobody really uses that combination as it has horrible synergy

I actually didn't build them specially to make a point, I just took two of my mechs of similar tonnage, similar shape, similar hardpoint locations, similar alpha damage potential, etc and compared them to each other just to see how it all fit and those were the results. I realize my Zeus has a MRM20, but damage is damage no matter how it gets there. As far as the HLL/MPL synergy, I see them as having a perfect synergy. The HLL have a beam length of 1.55 and something like 5 second cooldown, which is forever and a day. The pulse lasers offset this by being much faster firing so while I am waiting on the massively recycle time of the HLLs I can continuously fire with the MPL. It may be a different type of synergy than matching up cooldown so you can just press one button every time you want to fire, but they compliment each other really well in the fashion I just mentioned.

But even that is not the point. The point is just how much more heat Clan weapons generate to produce the same potential damage as IS weapons. 78% vs 48%, that isn't a small difference and that isn't even counting how much faster the recycle time on IS weapons is compared to Clan. IS weapons being less spikey in regards to heat as just so much easier to manage with much more up time where they are ready to fire when a target presents itself. They can fire 2-3 times before having to cool where Clan mechs often are at or near heat cap after one alpha. It just doesn't make sense for this to be the case, now that the DHS doesn't also increase the heat capacity. Also even if we say Clan weapon heat is balanced by the fact they can mount more DHS and thus have a higher dissipation rate, that rule only applies for those clan mechs than can boat 20+ DHS. Mechs like say a Black Lanner that are lucky to get maybe 15 DHS mounted after any reasonable weapons loadout are just flat S.0.L. because even 3-4 ER MLs get to be near unreasonably hot on 15 DHS. Its a flat crazy amount of heat the Clan weapons generate that doesn't work with the current fixed heat cap.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Angel of Annihilation, on 04 March 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

I actually didn't build them specially to make a point...

The point is just how much more heat Clan weapons generate to produce the same potential damage as IS weapons.

So you thought the best way to do this wasn't to compare similar weapons (lasers) but to allow one side to use better Dam/Heat weapons as well (MRMs) ?

Why not add an ATM to the WHM-IIC? Use the "1" instead of the 3. A 3.5 ton ATM6 gives you 18 extra damage in optimum range (damage is damage, right? You're already at 330m for the MPLs) for only 4.5 heat.

Oh wait, that wouldn't demonstrate your "Point" would it?

[Grus]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 March 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

Which?

There's a variant (dont own a zuse sadly) that you can put like "alldamizzles" into a arm and just clobber people with it... nasy thing, but haven't seen it around in a while.

[Grus]

Jay Leon Hart, on 04 March 2019 - 03:04 PM, said:

damage is damage, right?

So I'm pretty sure this was laced with heavy sarcasm, but for the rest of the readers...

IMHO; damage is NOT just damage. Throwing a load of damage that isnt effective or to the point of killing the mach is a waste of time, ammo, ( and if you're clan) heat. Make sure you apply your shots to take the target out of the fight.

[K O Z A K]

Angel of Annihilation, on 04 March 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

but damage is damage no matter how it gets there

well the thing is no it's not, spread damage is not the same as pinpoint damage

I actually liked the asymmetrical balance clan and IS had before the heat changes, it made the playstyles more different. Now they made them a lot more similar, the only difference is basically shorter burns, better agility + lower heat alpha vs longer range and better dissipation

[Prototelis]

Weapon balance at the top end of the scale seems fine.

Clan mediums and Clan lights that aren't the PIR seem undergunned/underarmored.

[Khobai]

damage is not damage.

1000 damage spread all over the place with LRMs isnt the same thing as 500 damage to people's torsos with lasers.

IMO match score based on damage should be weighted depending on the locations hit. If you hit lethal locations (i.e. a location that subsequently results in a mech dying) it should be worth more than hitting non-lethal locations. doing 1000 damage with LRMs shouldnt be worth the same as doing 1000 damage with lasers because its at best half as lethal. kills resulting from backshots or headshots should also get pretty big score modifiers since it takes less damage to kill mechs when you hit them in those locations. By properly rewarding people they wouldnt have to farm damage for match score.


as for balance... the biggest imbalance IMO is the clan heatsinks, engines, and FF/ES. the weapons arnt that bad anymore. its those fundamental techs that cause the biggest imbalance right now.

Edited by Khobai, 04 March 2019 - 03:31 PM.

[LordNothing]

i think the weapons are balanced really well. its the mechs that need to be balanced. mostly old (mostly pre-clan) is mechs that have been neglected by the power creep. some of them need monster quirks, or perhaps more hardpoints/new variants. a lot of the newer is mechs are also pretty well balanced, with better hardpoint distributions and high points everywhere.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 March 2019 - 03:54 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Jay Leon Hart, on 04 March 2019 - 03:04 PM, said:

So you thought the best way to do this wasn't to compare similar weapons (lasers) but to allow one side to use better Dam/Heat weapons as well (MRMs) ?

Why not add an ATM to the WHM-IIC? Use the "1" instead of the 3. A 3.5 ton ATM6 gives you 18 extra damage in optimum range (damage is damage, right? You're already at 330m for the MPLs) for only 4.5 heat.

Oh wait, that wouldn't demonstrate your "Point" would it?

Ok thats cool lets use that build. Honestly, you kind of make this too easy. I get a 0.38 DPS increase on the standard WHM-IIC with the ATM6 attached. However my heat dissipation goes down by 0.66 hps and a single alpha from the build you suggests pretty much roasts my mech hitting 90% in a single alpha which my actual damage before overheat goes down to like 82.5 damage IF I am in the ATM optimal damage range where it does 3 damage per missile. If I am not, the damage goes down substancial compared to the heat generated. Hell lets be generous and say that since I have 10% left on my heat threshold and if I count dissipation that occurs during my weapons cooldown, firing just the 5 MPL edges me into full shutown so we will say 115 damage before shutdown. That is even further away than the 186 damage I can do with the Zeus before it goes into shutdown.

So what part isn't demonstrating my point that Clan weapons are too hot? I am confused??

Edit: Did another experiment. Dropped out 2xMPL to bring the alpha potential back in line with the Zeus. An Alpha still generates a heat spike of 72% of the total heat scale as opposed to the 48% the Alpha on my Zeus produces.

Edited by Angel of Annihilation, 04 March 2019 - 04:30 PM.

[Prototelis]

Stop comparing a bad build to a decent one just because they puke up the same number.

Clan weapons might generate more heat, however properly built clan mechs have DISSIPATION for days. Lighter engines, better ferro/endo, smaller heatsinks, etc.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prototelis, on 04 March 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

Stop comparing a bad build to a decent one just because they puke up the same number.

Clan weapons might generate more heat, however properly built clan mechs have DISSIPATION for days. Lighter engines, better ferro/endo, smaller heatsinks, etc.

I am counting the dissipation rates in my comparisons and Clan mechs need those lighter engines, better ferro/endo and smaller heatsinks because they have mounts 25 or so of them just to equal the same performance IS mechs get with only 17-18. That is one of the reasons Clan weapons are so much hotter, to offset the larger amount of DHS a Clan mech can mount but the current heat values are tunned for when the DHS count also increased the Heat Cap. Back before they adjusted it to what is it now 40 total heat regardless of how many heat sinks, a Clan mech mounting 20+ DHS could get a heat cap of like 60 or some such. With say a 60 heat cap, the heat spike my Warhammer IIC is hitting, 78% would be more like 58% which is still hotter than the IS mech but because of the increased dissipation, it equals out. Now many clan weapons are just way to hot for a mere 40 heat cap.

Also this part doesn't even address the weapons quirks that many IS mechs get that have a tremendous impact in regards to reducing the heat even further for them. Clans get max 5% reduction and then on only a very rare few of them.

Of course we could circle back around to the agility and mobility stats again and how on average IS mechs have usually significantly better agility stats pretty much across the board or how many IS mechs have huge durability quirks that give some of their 70 tons mechs, the armor value of Clan 100 ton mechs.

The point is, at this juncture of the game, the Clans are just way, way over-nerfed and that needs to be dial back a bit, especially now that the Clans last real advantage, the Clan XL engine, has been nerfed to the point losing a side torso means death 80-90% of the time making it for all intents and purposes just like for an IS XL.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Try 1 HLL, 1 ATM6, 6 ERML (not MPL, they're worse) and drop engine to 350.
That's 61/67/73 Alpha with 29 DHS and just edges out 122/134/146 damage in 2 shots before shutdown.

Or make it an ATM12? Drop 1 ERML and some DHS. Now you have 60.5/72.5/90.5 Alpha and 121/145/181 damage before shutdown.

Or back to just lasers. 2 HLL, 5 ERML (not MPL) and 31 DHS. 129 damage before shutdown. Same as your MPL build which definitely doesn't manage 3 volleys before shutdown w/o skills. I could spend the SP, but I'm not.

So what did we prove? Missiles are better than lasers if you want heat efficient damage.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 04 March 2019 - 05:00 PM.

[Prototelis]

Angel of Annihilation, on 04 March 2019 - 04:59 PM, said:

I am counting the dissipation rates in my comparisons and Clan mechs need those lighter engines, better ferro/endo and smaller heatsinks because they have mounts 25 or so of them

For real dude. This is what you are trying to say, the other 400 words are completely unnecessary.

But anyways, this is comparing a bad build to a decent build because they puke up the same number. Well build clan mechs have terrific DPS because of their much greater dissipation.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prototelis, on 04 March 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

For real dude. This is what you are trying to say, the other 400 words are completely unnecessary.

But anyways, this is comparing a bad build to a decent build because they puke up the same number. Well build clan mechs have terrific DPS because of their much greater dissipation.

Your talking about a few of the top meta Clan mechs. I am talking about Clan mechs in general. Also most of the really top end Clan mechs are Dakka heavy and honestly I don't have an issue with the current balance numbers for Clan Dakka. I do have issues with the current numbers for energy weapons and possible missile weapons though I haven't explored missiles fully to make that statement yet.

Overall what I think needs to be done is PGI needs to look hard at the heat values for Clan energy weapons and dial the heat back a bit on most of them by maybe 10-20% give or take, maybe look at Missile but leave the Ballistics the same. Second they should seriously look at Clan agility and mobility figures and on anything but the top meta Clan mechs, adjust the values up a bit across the board just to give them something approaching the average IS numbers, basically make them more fun to pilot. Then lastly, seriously look at the underperforming Clan mechs and start giving them the IS treatment in terms of quirks.

Seriously though, they heat is just choking the life out of many clan mechs. Way too many of the omnimechs are over-engined to the n'th degree and just don't have the capacity to boat the DHS required to get that crazy dissipation your mentioning. Hell I might even accept a bit less raw damage if we could get the heat levels down to point where I could actually fire my guns rather than standing around cooling all the time and I would like to stop moving around like I am in molasses just because I want to play a Clan mech.

Edit: I forgot to summarize this for those who don't like to read.

Heat Bad. Sluggish Bad. Make less hot, make less sluggish, then Clan mech Good.

Edited by Angel of Annihilation, 04 March 2019 - 05:52 PM.

[Prototelis]

Oh lol. Now I'm dumb because an unformatted block of text is an eyesore?

What's dumber; Not wanting to read through five paragraphs that don't add any depth to the point you are trying to convey, or not being able to argue a simple point in a few sentences?