21 replies to this topic

[Gentleman Reaper]

That being how a lot of the game's weapons were defined by their ability to boat and alpha, with ghost heat being the primary form of balancing, as opposed to weapons being balanced in general. Here's my observations:

Lasers:

Long defined by their ability to do large pinpoint alphas, due to exploiting the loopholes with ghost heat's mechanics, they're underpowered and rather awkward weapons on their own, or in small numbers. In order to even their effectiveness across the board, we now have the ability to use energy draw values as a balancing point, upping their general effectiveness (damage/RoF/duration) in exchange for increased draw values, limiting their ability to alpha.

This extends to clan lasers as well. We can give them a more manageable beam duration, making their advantage in damage and range compared to IS counterparts offset by less lethal alphas.

PPCs:

More efficient now, as up to three can be fired at once, PPCs have seen a large increase in use in the test server. They are also currently used as the bulk of the, now meta, PPFLD alpha builds. This used to be the meta back in the day, since gauss was a powerful companion weapon to the PPC, because of their similar velocities, which is now the issue with PPCs and autocannons like the AC/5 and AC/10.

A similar method to nerfing the gauss/ppc meta can be used here, namely adding a charge mechanic to PPCs, and increasing their velocity to give them poor synergy with the autocannons, and now the gauss, while simultaneously making PPCs the sniper weapons they are in lore.

Clan PPCs can also fall under the same treatment as clan lasers, increase front loaded damage to 15 but give a large draw value, along with a longer cooldown and even a longer charge time to the IS versions.

Autocannons:

Now significantly more powerful because of the power vacuum left by the laser alpha meta, autocannons are devastating boats because they can easily fill the alpha quota that energy draw allows, all of which is front-loaded damage. Looking at autocannons on their own, they're well balanced and powerful weapons, so the solution is simply upping draw values on some of the autocannons, namely the AC/5 and 10. The AC/20 is fairly good where it is now, while the AC/2 is now an even worse weapon now thanks to the longer cooldown, so bringing it back to its original numbers would make it stand out more from the other autocannons.

Gauss Rifle:

And here we come to the most exploitable weapon with the new mechanics, as their virtually non-existent heat allows to to be fired right after a big alpha without receiving a big heat penalty. There are multiple ways that this can be rectified, although these solutions either go against TT lore, or impact energy draw in a unique way:

1) Give Gauss rifles a higher heat value.

This would punish you for firing them past the energy threshold, but goes against the lore of Gauss rifles being extremely heat efficient weapons.

2) Gauss rifles lower the alpha cap.

This is an idea I got from Twinkleblade, who suggested that every Gauss rifle on your mech would lower the energy cap by a certain amount, which would lower the size of the alpha before you fire the gauss. This would also allow you to mount more than 2 of them without them becoming overpowered, and would allow mechs like the Thunder Hawk to be introduced in the future.

What are you thoughts on these? How would you use energy draw as a balancing tool?

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 21 August 2016 - 09:50 AM.

[Wintersdark]

I'm actually thinking what needs to happen with Gauss Rifles is vastly increasing their ED costing.

If Gauss was at 1.5:1 ED:Damage, you'd have Gauss Rifles costing 22.5 Energy each. This makes firing them at the same time as other weapons significantly more costly in terms of additional heat.

If we stay at 0.5 heat:overdraw, then you may want to go as far as 2:1 draw:damage, which takes you to a single gauss rifle consuming your full energy bar, and a Dual Gauss shot actually drawing 60 energy and thus generating 15 heat on it's own.

Add PPC's to that, such as Dual Gauss/Dual ERPPC, and you've got oppressive heat.

This would, IMHO, more than anything else allow Gauss to keep no-charge firing but prohibit Gauss+other weapons simultaneously.... WHILE maintaining Gauss + other weapons fired separately as a smart build choice for heat management as overall heat is what limits damage output.

So, autocannons are more efficient when firing alpha strikes (though much hotter, etc) while Gauss is an extremely effective sniper rifle but falter when used in an alpha.

[TKSax]

Ghost heat is not gone... it's just been expanded, all energy draw is Global Ghost Heat.

[Felicitatem Parco]

...

... I.. can't.. hold... back...


.!!!&&$^@*AAAAHHHH!!

GAUSS RIFLES SHOULD GENERATE CONSIDERABLE HEAT BECAUSE THE CHARGING AND DISCHARGING OF THE CAPACITORS AT SUCH A RAPID PACE IS WWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY LESS THAN 100% EFFICIENT!!!!!!


AAAAAAAHHHHHH



(Edit: I'm better now.. *phew*)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 21 August 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[Mcgral18]

TKSax, on 21 August 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Ghost heat is not gone... it's just been expanded, all energy draw is Global Ghost Heat.

Ghost Heat Mk2

[Wintersdark]

TKSax, on 21 August 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Ghost heat is not gone... it's just been expanded, all energy draw is Global Ghost Heat.

Exactly. It's a global, and more tunable Ghost Heat.

Prosperity Park, on 21 August 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

...

... I.. can't.. hold... back...


.!!!&&$^@*AAAAHHHH!!

GAUSS RIFLES SHOULD GENERATE CONSIDERABLE HEAT BECAUSE THE CHARGING AND DISCHARGING OF THE CAPACITORS AT SUCH A RAPID PACE IS WWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY LESS THAN 100% EFFICIENT!!!!!!


AAAAAAAHHHHHH



(Edit: I'm better now.. *phew*)

So..... you like my suggestion of Gauss Rifles having substantial ED costs? Like 1.5 or 2:1? That way, while they don't have heat normally (as per Battletech, which as much as I agree with you.... *shrugs* it is what it is) firing two at once (or Gauss Rifles+other things) generates substantial heat?

[Gentleman Reaper]

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

So..... you like my suggestion of Gauss Rifles having substantial ED costs? Like 1.5 or 2:1? That way, while they don't have heat normally (as per Battletech, which as much as I agree with you.... *shrugs* it is what it is) firing two at once (or Gauss Rifles+other things) generates substantial heat?

This actually is a valid option too, as ED simply adds extra heat for every point of damage, rather than multiplying the weapon's heat.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gentleman Reaper, on 21 August 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Lasers:

Long defined by their ability to do large pinpoint alphas, due to exploiting the loopholes with ghost heat's mechanics

Lol. Yes, exploiting a mechanic designed to prevent the boating of large class lasers by mixing in small ones.

I have a secret for you. If PGI had intended to prevent firing medium lasers and large lasers together, ghost heat would have linked them, much like the ERSL/ERML are linked.

[Wintersdark]

Gentleman Reaper, on 21 August 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

This actually is a valid option too, as ED simply adds extra heat for every point of damage, rather than multiplying the weapon's heat.

And as such is more elegant and actually utilizes the system we have.

Gauss rifles remain great snipers but are differentiated from autocannon by being less practical to combine in an alpha.

Gas Guzzler, on 21 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Lol. Yes, exploiting a mechanic designed to prevent the boating of large class lasers by mixing in small ones.

I have a secret for you. If PGI had intended to prevent firing medium lasers and large lasers together, ghost heat would have linked them, much like the ERSL/ERML are linked.

At the time, I imagine they didn't anticipate the combination.

ED shows they do want combined alphas reduced.

But GH can't really address cross group issues well, or it causes ridiculous problems due to how GH is calculated. For example, LPL+2ERML isn't an issue, but if they were all in a group together it would be weapon count instead of damage, and they'd be penalized like 3 LPL, which is silly.

[Astrocanis]

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Exactly. It's a global, and more tunable Ghost Heat.



So..... you like my suggestion of Gauss Rifles having substantial ED costs? Like 1.5 or 2:1? That way, while they don't have heat normally (as per Battletech, which as much as I agree with you.... *shrugs* it is what it is) firing two at once (or Gauss Rifles+other things) generates substantial heat?

Let's remove another weapon from active play as long as we're playing with ED.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

At the time, I imagine they didn't anticipate the combination.

ED shows they do want combined alphas reduced.

But GH can't really address cross group issues well, or it causes ridiculous problems due to how GH is calculated. For example, LPL+2ERML isn't an issue, but if they were all in a group together it would be weapon count instead of damage, and they'd be penalized like 3 LPL, which is silly.

Sorry, I just can't stand the implication that firing medium lasers with large lasers is some sort of exploit of a loophole. What's funny is it was possible to have laser vomit alphas upwards of 50 damage (BNC-3M, ask McGral) before the Clans came, but no one cared about them then.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Lol. Yes, exploiting a mechanic designed to prevent the boating of large class lasers by mixing in small ones.

I have a secret for you. If PGI had intended to prevent firing medium lasers and large lasers together, ghost heat would have linked them, much like the ERSL/ERML are linked.

Except it's not that simple, it's easy to link ermls and and ersls because they're almost the same weight, but an ERLL is 4 or 5 times heavier and has a significantly higher range profile.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 August 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Sorry, I just can't stand the implication that firing medium lasers with large lasers is some sort of exploit of a loophole. What's funny is it was possible to have laser vomit alphas upwards of 50 damage (BNC-3M, ask McGral) before the Clans came, but no one cared about them then.

the preclan 3M was pretty terrible though, as that was also pre quirk, it was extremely hot.

This isn't pre clan anymore, though, and whatever system is in place needs to work in a post clan world.

Ghost Heat was crappy pre clan too.


And if firing medium and large pulse lasers is not an exploit of a loophole, when they have fairly similar durations, ranges, etc... Why is just adding more LPL's a problem?

We all know those ML's get added to push up the burn damage. If that's OK, why bother with say the 2 clpl limit?

Which way are you arguing it? Larger alphas are fine, and ghost heat is unnecessary, or larger alphas are not fine, and GH is easily bypassed?

Or is your problem purely weapon boating, and not about alpha at all, at which point we arrive at the old "but many mechs are intended to boat" issue.


Now, like I've said constantly, I still think convergence is the real issue, but that's not getting fixed.

This is just a more granularly tunable Ghost Heat, not the solution I'd have picked, but an improvement over its crap.

Edited by Wintersdark, 21 August 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Gentleman Reaper, on 21 August 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

Except it's not that simple, it's easy to link ermls and and ersls because they're almost the same weight, but an ERLL is 4 or 5 times heavier and has a significantly higher range profile.

Essentially, by moving away from Ghost Heat 1.0 to the Energy Draw 0.5 (not Live yet) PGI is able to manage it slightly different, especially since GH 1.0 uses the largest weapon/heat culprit in that linked group where as ED appears to manage the energy draw based on damage per weapon and the extra heat that it would generate.

I am wanting to see what ED 0.6 will look like.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 August 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'm actually thinking what needs to happen with Gauss Rifles is vastly increasing their ED costing.

If Gauss was at 1.5:1 ED:Damage, you'd have Gauss Rifles costing 22.5 Energy each. This makes firing them at the same time as other weapons significantly more costly in terms of additional heat.

If we stay at 0.5 heat:overdraw, then you may want to go as far as 2:1 draw:damage, which takes you to a single gauss rifle consuming your full energy bar, and a Dual Gauss shot actually drawing 60 energy and thus generating 15 heat on it's own.

Add PPC's to that, such as Dual Gauss/Dual ERPPC, and you've got oppressive heat.

This would, IMHO, more than anything else allow Gauss to keep no-charge firing but prohibit Gauss+other weapons simultaneously.... WHILE maintaining Gauss + other weapons fired separately as a smart build choice for heat management as overall heat is what limits damage output.

So, autocannons are more efficient when firing alpha strikes (though much hotter, etc) while Gauss is an extremely effective sniper rifle but falter when used in an alpha.

Something like this imo, as well as giving us a good start to balancing anything else like heat gen, cooldown, etc.

Having a 1.5-1 for Gauss and maybe a 1.25 -1 for ER/PPCs would be nice. But again, that's what our PTS is for

[Wintersdark]

Tarl Cabot, on 21 August 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

Essentially, by moving away from Ghost Heat 1.0 to the Energy Draw 0.5 (not Live yet) PGI is able to manage it slightly different, especially since GH 1.0 uses the largest weapon/heat culprit in that linked group where as ED appears to manage the energy draw based on damage per weapon and the extra heat that it would generate.

I am wanting to see what ED 0.6 will look like.

Indeed. Linked groups from Ghost Heat are simply not flexible enough. ED is more tunable.

MauttyKoray, on 21 August 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

Something like this imo, as well as giving us a good start to balancing anything else like heat gen, cooldown, etc.

Having a 1.5-1 for Gauss and maybe a 1.25 -1 for ER/PPCs would be nice. But again, that's what our PTS is for

my proposal thread in the pts forum has that, in fact

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'm actually thinking what needs to happen with Gauss Rifles is vastly increasing their ED costing.

If Gauss was at 1.5:1 ED:Damage, you'd have Gauss Rifles costing 22.5 Energy each. This makes firing them at the same time as other weapons significantly more costly in terms of additional heat.

If we stay at 0.5 heat:overdraw, then you may want to go as far as 2:1 draw:damage, which takes you to a single gauss rifle consuming your full energy bar, and a Dual Gauss shot actually drawing 60 energy and thus generating 15 heat on it's own.

So Gauss + energy weapons would be penalized, Gauss on it's own has a nearly 7 second recharge (making it a pretty awful weapon to rely on other than alpha strikes) - why don't we just remove Gauss Rifles from the game?

[Gentleman Reaper]

Ultimax, on 21 August 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

So Gauss + energy weapons would be penalized, Gauss on it's own has a nearly 7 second recharge (making it a pretty awful weapon to rely on other than alpha strikes) - why don't we just remove Gauss Rifles from the game?

Again, ED only penalizes you when you alpha, it's not so unbearable to fire your gauss and wait a split second to fire your other weapons and vice versa. People who love their alphas are making this out to be infinitely worse than it actually is.

[MauttyKoray]

Ultimax, on 21 August 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

So Gauss + energy weapons would be penalized, Gauss on it's own has a nearly 7 second recharge (making it a pretty awful weapon to rely on other than alpha strikes) - why don't we just remove Gauss Rifles from the game?

If you fired them in alpha, yeah. Even over 15 each, their ED giving you a penalty of say 2-4 points for firing 2 over the 30 draw cap, would barely be noticeable and recharge quickly enough that you'd be able to fire lasers shortly after

The point is to break up high damage 'blasts' that are the reason we have terms like '1 shotting a mech'. Its not to stop players from shooting any weapon they want, and your claim that it should just be removed from the game has me doubting your experience with ED...

Please tell me you've at least played the PTS before complaining? It plays really well actually, and makes Ghost Heat look like the silly bandage it always was.

[Wintersdark]

Astrocanis, on 21 August 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Let's remove another weapon from active play as long as we're playing with ED.

so you feel zero heat 15 damage near hitscan long range projectile weapons would be effectively removed from the game if it generated penalty heat firing them at the exact same moment as other weapons? I see lots of Gauss rifles in use in Live with a charge delay that causes that same effect.

Ultimax, on 21 August 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

So Gauss + energy weapons would be penalized, Gauss on it's own has a nearly 7 second recharge (making it a pretty awful weapon to rely on other than alpha strikes) - why don't we just remove Gauss Rifles from the game?

Gauss + ANY weapons, within 1 second, would be penalized. But that happens in essence on life anyways with the charge delay. With a 7s cooldown, you fire it when you can, then fire whatever else half a second or so later