10 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

I just quickly read about the energie draw thing and I just want to ask, why introduceing a new mechanic of the old tabletop system allready has a penalty system that hasn't been done yet?
Its also mentioned in the books what heat buildup causes to the mech and pilot. Why don't they take that over?

Sure you can't copy/paste the TT system and I don't ask for that but why not let oneself be inspirded by it?

For example, the higher your heat goes up the slower your mech becomes and/or your target crosshair starts to act weird and/or your accuracy drops.

All of these examples are very close to what the heatscale was originaly for in the TT, its whats mentioned in the novels and its quite a nice risk/reward system.

So can someone answere my question of why they introduce this kinda unintuitiv system over a simple "you fire a lot, you get a lot of problems...done" system that gives you a simple feedback you can learn to work with....instead of using a calculator to find the best options.

Thats what the new system is to me. Its not a reward system for good piloting but good engineers who like to fiddle around with "Meta" stuff.
It kinda overcomplicates thing and MWO is allready to complex for your everyday Yo.

Just my thought on this matter. Hope some of the devs read this and give some insight to it.

[Paigan]

The additional systems are not about penalizing high heat. They are about penalizing high alphas.
The question is how to overpropotionally reach high heat values, not what effects high heat values cause.

Apples and oranges.

That being said, I too wondered why there aren't more penalties of high heat.
For example:
- lower speed and crosshair problems (as you already said)
- some kind of pilot red-out
- maybe UI problems (would be funny)

[xengk]

to the non-TT, those thing sounds like "Ghost Penalty".

*Fires 2 ERPPC*
why my mech slow down?! I want to move to new sniping position!!
this game is bugged!! why do I have to memorize what penalty is at what level of heat?!

[Nesutizale]

Paigan, on 19 August 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

The additional systems are not about penalizing high heat. They are about penalizing high alphas.
The question is how to overpropotionally reach high heat values, not what effects high heat values cause.

Apples and oranges.

Maybe we have a different understanding of high alphas. To me they are, simply speaking, "fire a lot of weapons at the same time". This results in high heat.

So haveing an additinal, or some additinal steps of penalties before the "shutdown" would force you to be more causious about fireing a lot.
Currently you can play the "riding the red line". So doing a bit of math and training will results in you beeing able to do lots of alphas without problems.

Now just imagne your UI would start shaking at half the heat your alpha generates. Will you still keep firing? What if you do the "riding the red line" thing but because of the heat your mech is barly able to get back into hiding...will you still alpha like you do now? Also your UI is acting up in addition.

Quote

to the non-TT, those thing sounds like "Ghost Penalty".

*Fires 2 ERPPC*
why my mech slow down?! I want to move to new sniping position!!
this game is bugged!! why do I have to memorize what penalty is at what level of heat?!

We allready have similar penalties in other games and people have taken them up quite quickly like when you run or fire constantly your aim becomes worse.
In these cases there isn't even any kind of indicator to tell you why.

So if you have a slow curve of penalty (the hotter you get the slower you are) people won't even ask why after a few matches. I mean come on, people learned how to handle ghost heat and that system is realy strange...don't mention how long it took to be explained ingame....I still have problems figuring it out.

Also that is why I said I wouldn't take over the TT rules 1:1.
Make it a curve, the higher your heat goes, the more trouble you are in. No need for steps like in the TT.
Everyone should be able to understand that system.

_________
Oh one other thing....isn't this energy system just ghostheat with a viisble scale in the HUD?
I mean before you just got a warning in the mechlab "firering more then XY will be bad"

Now you can see it in your HUD. Ok its a bit more refined as it takes into consideration all kinds of weapons, not just firing similar types of weapons but in the end its visible ghost heat, isn't it?

Edited by Nesutizale, 19 August 2016 - 01:38 AM.

[xengk]

Nesutizale, on 19 August 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

Oh one other thing....isn't this energy system just ghostheat with a viisble scale in the HUD?
I mean before you just got a warning in the mechlab "firering more then XY will be bad"

Now you can see it in your HUD. Ok its a bit more refined as it takes into consideration all kinds of weapons, not just firing similar types of weapons but in the end its visible ghost heat, isn't it?

The important thing is to make the system transparent, so that player will know at a glance how the system work.
In TT you have heat scale card you can refer to anytime to check penalty.


As long as the system is clearly explain, there shouldn't be a big issue for players.
Like in other game; when you run, your crosshair expand; there is a visual cue and it is intuitive.
Heat Scale will also need some sort of visual presentation in game, maybe add gradient to the heat bar, from transparent to bright red.

However TT heat scale's penalty is determine by dice rolling and pilot checks.
People tend to not like RNGesus here.

[Nesutizale]

I agree that the system has to have some visual feedback that is easy to read.
The crosshair shacking or becomming bigger is one thing. Vision that becomes blured over time is another example.
You can also have some kind of sound effect like with MASC just the other way around that your mechs starts rattle as it slows down or the noise of the reactor goes up, trying to provide the energie you need.

There are a lot of things that could be done that give you some more immersion then this on/off type of gameplay we have now.

[Yosharian]

Just think what this will do to e.g. the Nova, 110-160m weaponry having the same energy draw as a 700m weapon is just a ******* joke

[Johnny Z]

Since the idea of energy draw has come for real it has brought some points to light. The heat system is good, but if it was to punishing it would suck. To put it simply. The more thought I have put into this energy draw, the better it looks.

Every Mechwarrior player has had their fist match shutting down all the time. Making that any worse is not the right direction. Making it better would even be a good thing.

That's why solving problems with heat has a limit to what can be done and power draw was needed. There are many other good things about power draw to, but this one is relevant to this topic.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 August 2016 - 02:44 AM.

[Nesutizale]

I think the current heat system is much to forgiving. Sure you shouldn't be punished for just fireing a Med Laser but fireing a lot of weapons in an alpha should be punished a lot earlier then it is now.
Currently its an on/off system with no drawbacks as long as you are under the red line.

The energy system, as far as I understand it, is inteded to limite the damage output to 30 per alpha.
That is as long as you just don't say, **** you I will just press override and fire with ghostheat in place.

And thats it, this system is ghostheat with an indicator in the HUD...and its asking you if you want to use ghost heat. "Please press override to activate ghostheat"
Then you can fire away and while building up more heat.

Thats just as unintuitive as it can be. Make it simple. More heat = more problems, done. Maybe give it a free threshhold before it starts but thats it.

Edited by Nesutizale, 19 August 2016 - 02:56 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

It's because of the 1 heat Gauss Rifle or other potentially game breaking weapons (I haven't checked sarna).

I agree that we should just use this. Gauss Rifle needs to be modified though while preserving its characteristic as the ultimate ballistic weapon. The question is how we should approach it. Just give it 10 heat?

[Nesutizale]

Yah the Gauss is a problem I agree on that.
Normaly the advantage of haveing low heat buildup of Gauss and AC is countered by weight and limited Ammo and the role of the dice.
In MWO you hit a lot more then in the TT, so weapons like the Gauss become a real problem.

So yah I guess the Gauss is the one weapon I would change its heat value compared to the TT. Maybe the AC2 and AC5 too...but the Gauss is just to cool.
The other option would be to make these weapons less accurate but I am not a fan of that idea. A skill base approach like the firewait the Gauss currently has is much better.
I first hated the Gauss for the firewait but now that I learned to use it, its a quite good mechanic I must say.