34 replies to this topic

[Alteran]

The point being, I have seen so many people talk about the Alpha Strike and how it needs to be tamed... the only problem, what is considered an Alpha Strike? How much is it?

Is the 'Alpha Strike' really a boogeyman that can only be defined by a personal perspective?

Edited by Alteran, 30 August 2016 - 07:32 AM.

[Shadowspawn42]

We need a similar poll for DPS.

I am ok with limiting Alpha strikes to 40 damage or less. And limiting sustain to 30 damage or less.

So give me an Energy of 40 with a recharge of 30 and brawling is still feasible. And keep everything else as it is on Live.

[Reno Blade]

quoted from another survey:

Reno Blade, on 28 August 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

1) What role, if any, should the heat system have in limiting alphas (here defined as firing most or all of a mech's mounted weapons in one shot)?

ED should reduce the dmg per volley to something about 20-35 and allow up to 15-20 dps (as is with the current 20 replenish / secon).
- 2x PPCs
- 1x or max 2x Gauss
- 3x SRM6, max 4x SRM6
- 40LRM tubes
- 1x AC20
- 2x AC10
- 3x LBX10
- 4x uAC5
- 2x LL/cERLL
- 2x LP/cLP
- 5x ML
- 5x MP
- 4x cML
- 4x cMP

2) Are there levels and types of alphas that are deemed more acceptable than others? If so, what are examples of acceptable/unacceptable alphas?

Limiting PPFLD to about 20, Lasers to about 25-30 (with possible higher value for longer beams over 1.4 seconds) and missile weapons to be about 40-60 damage with high spread (e.g. 3x SRM6 or 2x LRM15)

3) Is it an acceptable/unacceptable expectation that heavier mechs should have higher firepower output than lighter mechs? Why?

Better to keep the limit small, but start with lower penalties, so that you get penalties earlier, but less severe, so even smaller mechs need to manage their potential energy draw.
But larger mechs should be effected in the same way: smaller volleys and just be able to shoot some more weapns in between (increased dps compared to smaller mechs).

4) Should the heat system have mechanics in place to limit the firepower capability of mechs beyond what their build and heat capacity allow - either by limiting simultaneous damage, Damage-over-time, types and amounts of weapons fired together, etc? Why?

Increasing cooldown or mech agility when over a certail limit (heat effects such as TT effects).


5) What, if any, types of builds and conditions should a heat system provide limits for beyond the base capabilities of the heat and builds systems?

In generall to just make it less efficient by shooting more than 2x the same "big" weapon (e.g. 2x PPC, 2x LRM15 or 2x Gauss) at the same time and make it better to spread the damage over multiple volleys (e.g. 2 +2 +2 instead of 6 per volley).
This should already be the case now with most "big" weapons.

[Steppenwolfen]

Just stick to the physics - available energy vs demand. Power weapons are attenuated where demand exceeds available energy; and projectiles fly until overcome by friction/gravity. etc. Oh, and PLEASE, attach some optional/adjustable logarithmic modification to the Joystick axis input so I can feel like I'm really driving a Mech (and still be capable of aiming).

[Alteran]

I'm still very interested in what people have to say about this subject.

Think of the different combinations that you use, where do we draw the line and call an Alpha strike an Alpha strike.

My example and a combination I like to use: 1 CLPL and 2 ERML = 27pts in a single strike, but is that an Alpha? No, because I've got that waiting to fire on the opposite side.

[Tiantara]

- All mech have firepower limit. From old days, someone call that firepower - alpha. Alpha it's a damage from all mech weapon which can do damage on neutral range effective for all weapons. As I can see - from 200m till 340m nearly.
Alpha don't include slow weapon (LRM) or weapons with different speed on some specific range (or use lock mechanic - ssrm). Also it don't include weapon which don't work in close range... something like that.
So examples for alphastrike:
AC5+Ac10
Gauss+ERPPC
PPC+LBX
LBX+SRM
ML+LL+ERLL
SL+SPL+MG+SRM
AC20+LBX20+SL+SPL
And so on...
Simply to say - any weapon with possibility to use all in specific range.

[ScarecrowES]

The great difficulty that ED presents extremely well is that all damage is not created equal. Apparently people feel 20pts of PPC damage is the absolute limit there, but people feel that 52pts of SRM damage is perfectly fine.

So beyond the ratios of acceptable damage for each type of weapon, we have a problem with the notion of heat and commitment for that damage.

PPCs take a lot of heat, and need a lot of tonnage in heat sinks in order to actually make them viable. Mechs that use PPCs trade pure damage output for the advantage of range and precision. They traded a lot away to get those advantages. Why place further restrictions on them? Because we don't like the "range and precision" thing?

Realistically, considering damage alone is only one pillar of balance, and addressing that one thing alone, especially at the expense of other pillars (in ED's case, heat) only serves to further throw things out of whack.

We need to be honest with ourselves in admitting that we don't really care about damage per se. We care about an unfavorable ratio between damage, heat, and investment.

[Tiantara]

Quote

We need to be honest with ourselves in admitting that we don't really care about damage per se. We care about an unfavorable ratio between damage, heat, and investment.

- To make simple. Everyone want have undestructable mech with one button "blast-them-off-my-sigh-kaboom-gun" weapon. Do huge damage and don't take that damage back. Especially when mech was bought. That's all.
I can agree with some splash damage for PPC to make them not so pinpoint deadly instead of heat, cooldown or Energy draw.
Some other weapon can be changed in some way too. Like - lower ammo per tonnage (7shot for ac20 - make gauss have also 7 shots)... make some mech bigger armor for having less firepower... like that...

[Reno Blade]

I think the issue with PPFLD weapons such as the PPC is that compared to any DoT/spread weapon, the concentrated damage makes group-fired hits (and to a lesser degree successive hits) very deadly.
Thats why 3x PPCs (concentrated 30dmg) are more dangerous than 4x SRM6 (about 50 spread dmg).

If PPCs have more splash, they can get a lot less heat and draw to trade that drawback, similar to cUACs "only" using 1:1 draw/dmg compared to the 1.2 factor of isACs with their single projectile.

Moving all ACs to burst of 2-4 shells, adding splash to all PPCs and we have a lot less balance issues and can use a "Alpha" limit of 30-40 instead of 20-30

[ScarecrowES]

Reno Blade, on 30 August 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

I think the issue with PPFLD weapons such as the PPC is that compared to any DoT/spread weapon, the concentrated damage makes group-fired hits (and to a lesser degree successive hits) very deadly.
Thats why 3x PPCs (concentrated 30dmg) are more dangerous than 4x SRM6 (about 50 spread dmg).

If PPCs have more splash, they can get a lot less heat and draw to trade that drawback, similar to cUACs "only" using 1:1 draw/dmg compared to the 1.2 factor of isACs with their single projectile.

Moving all ACs to burst of 2-4 shells, adding splash to all PPCs and we have a lot less balance issues and can use a "Alpha" limit of 30-40 instead of 20-30

There IS that perception about PPCs, but you'll have to admit that it's NEVER played out that way in practice. There isn't a single mech in the game where PPCs are a more favorable option than the alternative. And most of the time you see PPCs in a match, it's on a mech that's received significant PPC quirks. If 30pts of PPC damage were even EQUAL to 50pts of SRM damage, you'd be seeing PPCs all over the place.

No... I think that, in reality, the PPC boogeyman is not about the PPC at all. It's about the PPC+gauss boogeyman. Think about that honestly. The community be like: "2x PPC? Yeah, that's ok. 2x Gauss? Yeah, that's ok. PPC and gauss in ANY combination? Ohhh hell naw! Nerf that **** so that these things there's never even a CHANCE that someone will think to mount them on the same mech."

Now, we're not going to touch gauss... that thing's massive, heavy, has a goofy charge mechanic, and explodes for seemingly no reason... it's suffered enough, right? But that darned PPC?! 10 damage at 600m for only 7 tons and 3 crit slots? This shall not STAND! Sure, you could argue, it's also got a lot of heat too. But hell, we have more than enough heat capacity to compensate so who care's about heat, right?

So I think that PPCs are kinda the scapegoats for PPFLD hate. Since the heat system in MWO is quite generous, PPCs seem most out of line and in need of limitations. Like with everything else, if you fix the heat scale, you eliminate the need for such artificial limits.

[Parashurama]

You forgot to add a category for Long Tom in the poll.

[Rayden Wolf]

You see PPCs so rarely because you need aim for them. With srm you just have to facehug and its nearly impossible to miss a shot. Its more tricky at maxrange and the spread is a problem too if the target is far away(maxrange again). They just have a really limited combatrange, PPCs not.
And 30 dmg ppfld over 600m are a problem if you cant hit your opponent because he is behind cover again. Meanwhile yoir bullets hit nothing then air

[Reno Blade]

ScarecrowES, on 30 August 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

There IS that perception about PPCs, but you'll have to admit that it's NEVER played out that way in practice. There isn't a single mech in the game where PPCs are a more favorable option than the alternative. And most of the time you see PPCs in a match, it's on a mech that's received significant PPC quirks. If 30pts of PPC damage were even EQUAL to 50pts of SRM damage, you'd be seeing PPCs all over the place.

No... I think that, in reality, the PPC boogeyman is not about the PPC at all. It's about the PPC+gauss boogeyman. Think about that honestly. The community be like: "2x PPC? Yeah, that's ok. 2x Gauss? Yeah, that's ok. PPC and gauss in ANY combination? Ohhh hell naw! Nerf that **** so that these things there's never even a CHANCE that someone will think to mount them on the same mech."

Now, we're not going to touch gauss... that thing's massive, heavy, has a goofy charge mechanic, and explodes for seemingly no reason... it's suffered enough, right? But that darned PPC?! 10 damage at 600m for only 7 tons and 3 crit slots? This shall not STAND! Sure, you could argue, it's also got a lot of heat too. But hell, we have more than enough heat capacity to compensate so who care's about heat, right?

So I think that PPCs are kinda the scapegoats for PPFLD hate. Since the heat system in MWO is quite generous, PPCs seem most out of line and in need of limitations. Like with everything else, if you fix the heat scale, you eliminate the need for such artificial limits.

Yes, nowadays PPCs are not that scary without quirks or without a Gauss.
I remember the time when we had fast projectiles and EVERY mech was using 2x PPC + (Gauss/2xAC5).
Back then I said that PPCs are too easy to aim, and now they need a lot more skill and luck to even hit, but are still useful.
- Of course the current laser vomit is WAY easier to aim now (and a lot more dmg per volley on live servers).

My point is with the planed limits here in PTS2, skilled players will still/again prefere PPFLD including PPCs for comp play and allowing 30 dmg of PPFLD is easily competing against 50 spread dmg (depending on spread).

But also current SRM6A spread is very concentrated, so that 50 spread dmg is way closer to 40 dmg on a single component than 30.
With the increased spread, we might see more something like 35 dmg to a single component for 4xSRM6A.

So I am comparing 30 PPFLD for 600+meter range vs ~35 FLD at <270 meter ranges and this looks to be favoring the longer range of PPCs over the SRMs if the dmg to a single section is that close.

[Alteran]

More responses would be a good thing.

[Crushko]

I think the term "Alpha" is overrated, especially when we are looking at the values the poll considers an Alpha.

A true Alpha centric build like a LBX/SRM Splat DWF-S has an extreme Alpha however is only effective if the enemy comes around a corner or is met in a tunnel. At mid and long range such an Alpha build is countered by a sustained DPS build.

Actually if something deals 30 DMG its rather a sustained DPS build than an Alpha build in my book.

Edited by Crushko, 01 September 2016 - 01:07 AM.

[davoodoo]

There should be option

as much as your tonnage and slots allow for.

I dont think we need arbitrary number, we need some way to make sure this dmg cant be applied so easily(accuracy for example) or that its application isnt as effective(more armor).

Edited by davoodoo, 01 September 2016 - 01:15 PM.

[VISION ERIC]

I think the Energy System (Energy Draw) should be based on Mech Class (Light, Medium, Heavy & Assault) and engine size.
I think that it is unfair for an Assault Mech that has sacrificed speed and maneuverability to be the same Energy System as that of a light mech. This can be similar the jump jet mechanic. The more jump jets the better efficiency in a Mech Class
For example:
300 Engine = 30 Energy (30 Energy is the minimum level for all engines)
325 Engine = 32.5 Energy
350 Engine = 35 Energy
400 Engine = 40 Energy
So if a Light Mech has a face to face with an Assault it would have to consider if the engine is bigger and more efficient because of the weight class. If it stays the same, as all mechs having like 30 Energy Draw, then only both can do so much damage in one volley. A light or medium mech would be the best option because of speed and maneuverability.

[Ultimax]

Just to clarify your "questions" are asking if "15+" is too high, correct?

[Khobai]

anything more than 20 is too high

because when you fire two weapons at the same time they should never both automatically hit the same location

it completely breaks the armor system to allow that because the armor system is based on RNG hit locations

im not saying we should have RNG hit locations, thats dumb, im just saying the current armor system is based on having RNG hit locations. So if were not going to have RNG hit locations, the whole system needs to be redesigned from the ground up.

Which is what PGI shouldve done instead of this energy draw nonsense.

Edited by Khobai, 08 September 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Alteran]

Ultimax, on 08 September 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

Just to clarify your "questions" are asking if "15+" is too high, correct?

For clarification, at what amount do you think is too high for a single consolidated strike? In reading and seeing what ED does, I'd say a single strike aimed at sustained DPS.