11 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

The ghost heat system, for all its flaws, forced people to get a little bit creative about bypassing the extra heat. As a result, mixed builds became gradually more and more common both in the solo queue and among comp players. The meta moved from clan laservomit to include builds with SRMs and lasers, UACs and lasers, UACs and SRMs, PPCs and gauss, etc.

Now Energy is an almost universal value, and without ghost heat there's less of a benefit to mixing PPCs and gauss, or mixing AC5s and large lasers, for example. It's still benefitial, because we still have some weapons that are more hot than others, but in one sense, they have effectively nerfed mixed builds.

In the end, we're getting smaller alphastrikes, but I wonder if the meta will move back to the old days of 2013-era LL Stalkers and PPC Stalkers (but now we have Kodiaks and Banshees, of course), with some 2014-era PPC+gauss builds here and there.

Maybe the Atlas with AC20+SRM6+medium laser will disappear because its huge alpha strike is now pointless. If so, did you consider big alphastrikes and low TTK a bigger problem for making the game more fun, or is boating weapons a worse offender?

Thoughts?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Of course we will see more PPFLD and dakka, it is the most efficient damage, they need to have more granular groups or "energy" values if they want this to work, but at that point, isn't that the whole point of heat? I feel like if we are going down this route, heat values across the board need to be re-evaluated to make more sense.

[Tarl Cabot]

It is not just the larger alphas, it is the long range alphas, weapons what should have their cooldown timers approaching the GR settings between the Live and PTS settings. As long as the long range, heavy hitting weapons can be used effectively in brawling range, there will be no real reason to bring close range weapons.

There should be some distinction between boating (4-5 LPL) and big, close range alphas (AC20/srms/ml) with the AC20 having a longer cooldown timer when compared to the srm/ml so that an immediate repeat alpha only includes the srm/ml.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 19 August 2016 - 06:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tarl Cabot, on 19 August 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

As long as the long range, heavy hitting weapons can be used effetively in brawling range, there will be no real reason to bring close range weapons.

Brawling isn't as effective because the bigger mechs lost DPS due to the low limit and lights lost the Kiss of Death Jenner IIC.
Dakka is king if you want to "brawl".

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 August 2016 - 06:45 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 August 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

Of course we will see more PPFLD and dakka, it is the most efficient damage, they need to have more granular groups or "energy" values if they want this to work, but at that point, isn't that the whole point of heat? I feel like if we are going down this route, heat values across the board need to be re-evaluated to make more sense.

Yeah, it's almost a catch 22 situation.

• Power draw is supposed to replace ghost heat with a more elegant, universal solution.
  
• In order for Power draw to work, it needs to be more complex, to account for all the different options.
  
• If Power draw is more complex, then it's no longer an elegant, universal solution.

Basically, we now have two completely parallell systems, one of which has a huge impact on the other. If Power draw has different values for cluster weapons, different values for PPFLD, different values for brawling weapons and different values for sniping weapons, then we basically get the equivalent of different heat for every weapon. So now every weapon gets a heat value and an energy value, and too much energy creates heat.

Then maybe we can fix the Power Draw system by adding another layer! Electricity! Give each weapon an Electricity value, and too much electricity puts a drain on the Power draw, while too much power draw creates extra heat!

Tarl Cabot, on 19 August 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

It is not just the larger alphas, it is the long range alphas, weapons what should have their cooldown timers approaching the GR settings between the Live and PTS settings. As long as the long range, heavy hitting weapons can be used effectively in brawling range, there will be no real reason to bring close range weapons.

There should be some distinction between boating (4-5 LPL) and big, close range alphas (AC20/srms/ml) with the AC20 having a longer cooldown timer when compared to the srm/ml so that an immediate repeat alpha only includes the srm/ml.

I think they need to experiment more with drastic changes to cooldown. Separate brawling weapons with sniping weapons to a larger degree. An LL or LPL boat needs to be severely handicapped in a brawl with an AC20 / SRM brawler. And I don't think heat is the way to accomplish this.

I think they started along the right path with the gauss rifle. It's now a better sniping weapon, but has greatly increased cooldown. This makes you think twice about brawling with a dual gauss CPLT-K2 or something like that. It also reduces the effectiveness of those laser + gauss brawlers.

[FupDup]

I guess "it depends" on the specific case in question.

For Ghost Power, I think that it's mechanically salvageable but in need of many XML number adjustments. In general, they need to step away from the 1:1 energy:damage ratio, because normalization tends to ignore key variables lurking beneath the surface (e.g. not all damage points are created equally).

Edited by FupDup, 19 August 2016 - 08:02 AM.

[YourSaviorLegion]

This basically kills mixed builds and promotes weapon boating gg PGI

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

I guess "it depends" on the specific case in question.

For Ghost Power, I think that it's mechanically salvageable but in need of many XML number adjustments. In general, they need to step away from the 1:1 energy:damage ratio, because normalization tends to ignore key variables lurking beneath the surface (e.g. not all damage points are created equally).

But then... its a more complex and convoluted system, like Ghost Heat.


After seeing the 5-6LPL alpha builds, NOW do people understand that stacking MLs on top of LPLs is not a workaround? Lol.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 August 2016 - 08:26 AM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 August 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

But then... its a more complex and convoluted system, like Ghost Heat.

I don't think that Ghost Power's energy:damage ratio will ever be as crazy to calculate as Ghost Heat's different multipliers per weapon type and per quantity of weapon.

Mind you that I'm not saying it's amazing or perfect or anything, just that it's "playable."

Ghost Power (or Ghost Heat 2.0) is at least somewhat conveyed to the player on the UI, although they really do need to list the power per weapon in the mechlab.

[Gas Guzzler]

YourSaviorLegion, on 19 August 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

This basically kills mixed builds and promotes weapon boating gg PGI

I've been singing this song since announcement, but everyone kept saying "I can't wait for Energy Draw, it will raise TTK and encourage mix builds."

[Hit the Deck]

After they finalise the power draw values of weapons, we may very well go back to what we use now on the live server, the two weapon types combo/synergy to circumvent the penalty.

You are not talking about true mixed builds but I'd like to mention it - mixed builds basically don't have any purpose in this game. It's also compounded by the fact that you have pin point convergence. The ability to hit a single component is huge and people know that they need to maximise it.

As for your questions, I'll just reiterate what people say that any system which is intuitive, robust, all encompassing (yeah, you can have your exceptions here and there), and doesn't require meta knowledge is a good start. It remains to be seen how this new system will continue down the road before it goes live.

[Cy Mitchell]

I never had a problem with boating weapons (some Mechs are meant to boat) or large Alpha strikes. My problem was that some builds had large Alpha strikes and could do it over and over again without any drawbacks.

To solve that, there needs to be incremental negative repercussions for running excessively high heat for any length of time. That could have been accomplished with a heat scale added to GH with things like slowed speed, loss of agility, degraded sensors, reduced fire rate, weapon damage, shutdown, self destruct. However, a completely new system was introduced and is now being tested. Russ stated that the incremental impacts may still be added later. I think this system can work with some tweaking, fine tuning and refinement.