36 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

As it stands, the current jam mechanic can swing pretty hard, with the occasional double jam often making people (even me a couple of times) swear off UACs because when you don't get those good jams, they are just ****** to play with. These new changes only exacerbate the feast or famine nature because you now have a longer jam time. I'd much prefer shorter jam times but with increased jam chance, but how about we try and come up with a better mechanic or figure out a way to balance UACs without the mechanic because as it currently stands in both live and pts, they have this strong tendency to be too strong or just horrible and that is not a good thing to have in a game.

[FupDup]

You will take your 8-second jam UAC/2's and you will like it!

[Deathlike]

What do you think this is, a democracy?

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 02 September 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

You will take your 8-second jam UAC/2's bow to the RNG Gods and you will like it!

FTFY.

[Supersmacky]

Have to agree about the long 'un-jam' time. Was watching Kanajashi's vid earlier. Five seconds is rough, but eight seconds is just bloody awful. Yes, the chance of it happening has been reduced, but the off-set of a eight second delay before being able to use the gun again is horribly unbalanced.

[Deathlike]

Ideally, I'd like a "normalized" chance (in that the chance to jam is more or less the same), but with the cooldown scaled properly.

Otherwise, if we use our balance overlord's method of large arbitrary rates... a CUAC2 would need something like a 2-4% chance to jam... not the laughable 7% it is on the PTS.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 September 2016 - 10:28 AM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Jam chance alone is a bit... high to say the least with how long the unjam is. If the unjam time was proportional then it wouldn't be as bad.

My post from another thread.

Moonlight Grimoire, on 02 September 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

I agree with Pariah Devalis, Wintersdark, and Honiara. I like the lower jam chance on the lower caliber UAC's, I don't care for the 8 second lock out being across the board. Let's just do some math (I know I am silly) all using live server cooldowns:

• cUAC/2 Cooldown: 0.72s
  
• cUAC/5 Cooldown: 1.66s
  
• UAC/5 Cooldown: 1.66s
  
• cUAC/10 Cooldown: 2.50s
  
• cUAC/20 Cooldown: 4.00s

So with using a 1.5 or 2.0 jam time multiplier (and remember after unjamming the cooldown restarts) we would get:

• cUAC/2 Jam time: 1.08s/1.44s; Jam + Cooldown time: 1.9s/2.16s
  
• cUAC/5 Jam time: 2.49s/3.32s; Jam + coodlown time: 4.15s/4.98s
  
• UAC/5 Jam Time: 2.49s/3.32s; Jam + coodlown time: 4.15s/4.98s
  
• cUAC/10 Jam time: 3.75s/5.00s; Jam + coodlown time: 6.25s/7.50s
  
• cUAC/20 Jam time: 6.00s/8.00s; Jam + coodlown time: 10.00s/12.00s

So honestly while 1.5/2 time multiplier is fine for the UAC/2 I feel it gets a bit more ponderous for the UAC/20. I am on the fence with the UAC/5, it feels about right in my mind, the 2x time + cooldown being slightly shorter than on live while the UAC/10 is as it is on live currently while the UAC/20 you do not want to jam and if it does jam you really want back up weapons due to at UAC/20 range you do not want to be out 20/40 damage every 4 seconds for 10 to 12 seconds.

That pretty much sums up my feelings. Within that is wiggle room for adjusting jam chance on top of it, but, UAC/2's jamming for at most 2.16 seconds is a lot more sensible than 8 seconds plus your cool down afterwards. Yes this means that UAC/2's will be pretty baller in swarms it doesn't mean they won't be felt when you jam them. Of course maybe UAC/2's and UAC/5's would need longer cooldowns or jam times and not have it be a linear equation governing them since the UAC/20 would jam for, well, upwards of 12 seconds (which is how it is on the PTS atm) which is a very long time to wait to fire it again.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

While I see a lot of ideas that float around here keeping the RNG jam mechanic, I for one am a fan of dumping it entirely, and while it would be nice to see the jam mechanic from MW4 makes its return I would prefer to save that for if we ever get RACs. There is another option however, and I'll just copy my reddit post pretty much from a thread about the same thing.
Changes to UACs:

• Remove double tapping as an option
  
• Increase the burst count for each weapon so that it does about 25-50% more damage than a single slug AC (yes, this means the iUAC5 would become burst)
  
• Increase the heat by the same amount the damage potential is increased
  
• Done

Now they have increased damage potential with some trade-off (ease of use) and still maintain their role. Could even make sure their burst duration is as long as a laser that functions at a similar range and give the UAC good enough velocity so that it can actually pair up with lasers. Despite Kanajashi's protests, I believe both weapons should have relatively equal (or more, most likely more) DPS because the whole point is that UACs should be somewhat unreliable due to their burst duration (they should be similar to laser duration, including buffed velocities) compared to the standard ACs one shell reliability (similar to comparing Clan UACs against IS PPFLD ACs).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 September 2016 - 07:53 PM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Despite Kanajashi's protests, I believe both weapons should have relatively equal DPS ...

Which weapons should have relatively equal DPS?

AC 5s and UAC 5s?



If they have roughly equal DPS over time, and UAC 5s are burst like clan CUACs - I see no reason to ever spend the tonnage or slots on the UAC 5.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 02 September 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

Which weapons should have relatively equal DPS?

AC 5s and UAC 5s?

Well, I mostly said they should be equal because I tried to low ball it, more than likely it would need more potential DPS because it isn't PPFLD.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

While I see a lot of ideas that float around here keeping the RNG jam mechanic, I for one am a fan of dumping it entirely, and while it would be nice to see the jam mechanic from MW4 makes its return I would prefer to save that for if we ever get RACs. There is another option however, and I'll just copy my reddit post pretty much from a thread about the same thing.
Changes to UACs:

• Remove double tapping as an option
  
• Increase the burst count for each weapon so that it does about 25-50% more damage than a single slug AC (yes, this means the iUAC5 would become burst)
  
• Increase the heat by the same amount the damage potential is increased
  
• Done

Now they have increased damage potential with some trade-off (ease of use) and still maintain their role. Could even make sure their burst duration is as long as a laser that functions at a similar range and give the UAC good enough velocity so that it can actually pair up with lasers. Despite Kanajashi's protests, I believe both weapons should have relatively equal DPS because the whole point is that UACs should be somewhat unreliable due to their burst duration (they should be similar to laser duration, including buffed velocities) compared to the standard ACs one shell reliability (similar to comparing Clan UACs against IS PPFLD ACs).

Removing Double Tapping could work with what you posted, it is how MW4 did UAC's they would burst fire two volleys real quick then cool down for a while. This could, honestly, work as a much better alternative and as you said remove jam chance from the equation all together. This would also leave RAC's having the option to work as UAC's do with being able to basically fire as many times as you want during their cooldown but with a growing chance of jamming each time. Since RAC's are limited to 2's and 5's this would be a lot less power creep than it could be. Could even make RAC's fire in bursts of 1 damage pellets to help make them like UAC's but have the multiple tapping instead of instantly double tapping making them more skilled for choosing when to take the chance for another shot.

I will say, I don't mind the random jams, but, with how long the jam time is it is too unforgiving for people how have issues where their hardware will send a click twice which is very frustrating. Faster AC velocities in general I feel need to be a thing, and with burst fire weapons their DPS should be comparable to other stream fire weapons, since UAC's are more uncontrollable than say a laser it balances out for their low heat cost.

Lower Jam time or your posted idea I am equally fine with to be honest.

[kapusta11]

Here's an idea for NO-RNG UAC jam mechanic

• Second shot that is made before weapon cooldown goes back to zero increases weapon cooldown by 100% (additive)
  
• Third shot increases weapon cooldown by another 100% which counts as a jam
  
• (Optional) Each additional shot can only be made [weapon cooldown x 0.5] sec after the previous one. So UAC10 can double tap only 1.25 sec after the first shot was fired.
  
• Can be applied to RACs in future

Example with time frame UAC5 vs AC5 (1.66 sec cooldown):



0 sec:
Both weapons fire once

0.83 sec:
Second UAC5 shot, cooldown increased by 1.66 sec for a total of 2.49sec (remaining 0.83 + 1.66)

1.66 sec:
Second AC5 shot. UAC third shot which triggers a 1.66 sec jam for a total of 3.32 cooldown (remaining 1.66 + 1.66 jam)

3.32 sec
Third AC5 shot. If you fired only twice before with UAC5 then it is now ready to fire again, so third shot for UAC5.

4.98 sec
Fourth AC5 shot. If you decided to triple tap with UAC5 it unjams and you can fire again (4th UAC5 shot)


TL:DR
UACs can front load up to 3 shots so in the same time it takes normal ACs to fire twice UAC can fire 3 times; dps remanis the same as that of standard ACs.


Edit: Figured that single double tap was too weak and changed it so that you can now triple tap before jamming.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 September 2016 - 09:11 AM.

[Reno Blade]

kapusta11, on 03 September 2016 - 12:07 AM, said:

Here's an idea for NO-RNG UAC jam mechanic

- UACs always jam when you double tap
- Weapon still fires before jamming
- Jam dutaion is equal to weapon cooldown
- (Optional) can double tap only after [weapon cooldown x 0.5] sec. So UAC10 can double tap only 1.25 sec after the first shot was fired.
- Can be applied to RACs



Example with time frame:

UAC5 vs AC5 (1.66 sec cooldown)

0 sec:
Both weapons fire once

0.83 sec:
UAC5 double tap, trigger 1.66 sec jam

1.66 sec:
AC5 second shot

2.49 sec
UAC5 unjam, still wait 0.83 sec (remaining cooldown)

3.32 sec
Both are ready to fire again


TL:DR
UACs can front load two shots, dps remanis the same as that of normal ACs. What's the point? Kill things a tad bit faster due to front loading your damage output. Pure UAC5 builds have time (2.49 sec) to torso twist when their guns jam.

It reminds me of my first "idea" for changing how U/ACs work when we got the Clans:
To get the weapon closer to the Novels where they fired "streams" and reloaded in magazines ...

ACs shooting a lot of bullets depending on calliber and manufacturer an can keep shooting until a magazine is empty.
for MWO it could look like this:
AC20
up to 100 shots in a magazine
minimum shots fired per trigger 5
maimum shots fired per trigger 100 (if held down until depleted)
each bullet deals 2 damage
10 bullets per 5 second

AC10
up to 50 shots in a magazine
minimum shots fired per trigger 5
maimum shots fired per trigger 50 (if held down until depleted)
each bullet deals 1 damage
10 bullets per 5 second

AC5
up to 50 shots in a magazine
minimum shots fired per trigger 3
maimum shots fired per trigger 50 (if held down until depleted)
each bullet deals 0,5 damage
10 bullets per 5 second

AC2
up to 25 shots in a magazine
minimum shots fired per trigger 3
maimum shots fired per trigger 25 (if held down until depleted)
each bullet deals 0,2 damage
10 bullets per 5 second

Reload speeds of a magazine could be 5-10 sec or something
But with these kind of weapons beeing so close to FPS games AND being a nightmare on the games HSR hit detection (as we would have hundreds of bullets in the air every second)...

[davoodoo]

How about this, uac fires twice as many shells for a total of 200% dmg of normal ac, they got 30-40% higher cd than regular ac and 0.1s higher burst time(they fire faster basically) and they also got chance to jam equal to half/full ac class(2/5/10/20) and when they jam it takes 2 times their cooldown to unjam.

You dont get cramps trying to click uac2 3 times per second, you dont worry about additional burst time, but cooldown is higher to compensate and they are still superior to regular acs as they should be...

Edited by davoodoo, 03 September 2016 - 02:09 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 03 September 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

How about this, uac fires twice as many shells for a total of 200% dmg of normal ac, they got 30-40% higher cd than regular ac and 0.1s higher burst time(they fire faster basically) and they also got chance to jam equal to half/full ac class(2/5/10/20) and when they jam it takes 2 times their cooldown to unjam.

God no, the short burst is the reason the Dakka Kodiak was so powerful (not only did it have a lot of firepower, you couldn't twist in reaction fast enough to spread the damage), and you still aren't removing the stupid RNG mechanic nor are you making the jam time sensible (since you are increasing cooldown at the same time).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 September 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[ShoeKush]

Reno Blade, on 03 September 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

It reminds me of my first "idea" for changing how U/ACs work when we got the Clans:
To get the weapon closer to the Novels where they fired "streams" and reloaded in magazines ...

ACs shooting a lot of bullets depending on calliber and manufacturer an can keep shooting until a magazine is empty.
for MWO it could look like this:
AC20
up to 100 shots in a magazine
minimum shots fired per trigger 5
maimum shots fired per trigger 100 (if held down until depleted)
each bullet deals 2 damage
10 bullets per 5 second

AC10
up to 50 shots in a magazine
minimum shots fired per trigger 5
maimum shots fired per trigger 50 (if held down until depleted)
each bullet deals 1 damage
10 bullets per 5 second

AC5
up to 50 shots in a magazine
minimum shots fired per trigger 3
maimum shots fired per trigger 50 (if held down until depleted)
each bullet deals 0,5 damage
10 bullets per 5 second

AC2
up to 25 shots in a magazine
minimum shots fired per trigger 3
maimum shots fired per trigger 25 (if held down until depleted)
each bullet deals 0,2 damage
10 bullets per 5 second

Reload speeds of a magazine could be 5-10 sec or something
But with these kind of weapons beeing so close to FPS games AND being a nightmare on the games HSR hit detection (as we would have hundreds of bullets in the air every second)...

The Netcode destroys this idea. We can't have that many bullets being tracked in the game and still have a relatively lag free game, maybe. Haven't actually seen how great Crytek engine is.

Edited by ShoeKush, 03 September 2016 - 04:33 PM.

[L3mming2]

FupDup, on 02 September 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

You will take your 8-second jam UAC/2's and you will like it!

i like it,
its DPS is better then before (double taping give a actual dps increase for the UAC2's now) and its burst damage when u start fire is way better... (the double tap dps is now 108,3% wile before it was a dps loss on double tap)

ps now on life the double tap dps of a masterd mech with CUAC2's is 85,976%.... aka horible

Edited by L3mming2, 04 September 2016 - 04:07 AM.

[L3mming2]

Ultimax, on 02 September 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

Which weapons should have relatively equal DPS?

AC 5s and UAC 5s?



If they have roughly equal DPS over time, and UAC 5s are burst like clan CUACs - I see no reason to ever spend the tonnage or slots on the UAC 5.

on the current pts, is UAC5 have a 118,7% average damage on double tap
and the clan UAC5 has a 111,5% damage on double tap

* calculated with masterd mechs with cd module but no quirks

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 September 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

God no, the short burst is the reason the Dakka Kodiak was so powerful (not only did it have a lot of firepower, you couldn't twist in reaction fast enough to spread the damage), and you still aren't removing the stupid RNG mechanic nor are you making the jam time sensible (since you are increasing cooldown at the same time).

Well thats the reason you pack heavy acs, to deal heavy dmg with them, otheriwse i would go with ppc at half the weight.
and sorry apparently we got ed for that reason, double dmg = double draw, 9 draw per 10 dmg would mean 18 draw per uac10 and horribly enough 36 draw per uac20(which is major flaw...decide for yourself if in my idea or in ed...)

and no im not removing rng from jams, it being reliable occurence would simply be exploited or it would jam too often to be worthwhile.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 September 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 04 September 2016 - 04:12 AM, said:

and no im not removing rng from jams, it being reliable occurence would simply be exploited

That's kinda the point, having a mechanic that can be "exploited" adds skill to that weapon because you have to know what the sweet spot, the point is to limit how much damage it can do even in that sweet spot however.

RNG mechanics, especially ones that swing the balance of that item wildly from horrible to OP are bad mechanics and should replaced at all costs, they make those items unfun to play with and against. The smaller the effect the RNG has on the items usefulness, the better.