15 replies to this topic

[thisisxerxes]

Just thought I'd chime in that adding an energy draw really feels like adding needless complexity, that's going to make life hard for both players and developers - and it doesn't really add anything cool.

We already have heat. Flawed as it is, its job is to limit what you can fire. There are consequences for overheating, and it ties into mech-building loop with heatsinks. That's a nice, well-defined system the player can work with. There's decisions to be made around it. Fire discipline adds challenge.

Energy draw, if I'm reading it right, is just an indirect way of putting a hard cap on the number of weapons that can be fired at once, right? Players have to think about and deal with it, but can't influence it in any way, and it's not clearly messaged.
You may as well throw down the hard limits: 5 medlas max. 2 ppc max. 1 ac20 max.
That's not very fun - but isn't energy draw doing the same thing, but hiding it behind a yellow slider?

[FupDup]

Basically, "energy draw" (aka damage cap) limits weapons that aren't limited by heat (e.g. Gauss).

It does have its issues, though.

Edited by FupDup, 19 August 2016 - 03:10 PM.

[Wintersdark]

thisisxerxes, on 19 August 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

Just thought I'd chime in that adding an energy draw really feels like adding needless complexity, that's going to make life hard for both players and developers - and it doesn't really add anything cool.

We already have heat. Flawed as it is, its job is to limit what you can fire. There are consequences for overheating, and it ties into mech-building loop with heatsinks. That's a nice, well-defined system the player can work with. There's decisions to be made around it. Fire discipline adds challenge.

Energy draw, if I'm reading it right, is just an indirect way of putting a hard cap on the number of weapons that can be fired at once, right? Players have to think about and deal with it, but can't influence it in any way, and it's not clearly messaged.
You may as well throw down the hard limits: 5 medlas max. 2 ppc max. 1 ac20 max.
That's not very fun - but isn't energy draw doing the same thing, but hiding it behind a yellow slider?

....

You do realise that energy draw is a system that imposes soft caps instead of the much harder caps that Ghost Heat currently imposes.

You understand the currently existing Ghost Heat, don't you? Or, do you NOT understand it, but think Energy Draw (which is actually very simple, and shown in combat on the UI) is still more complex anyways?

Right now, on live, fire 2 PPC's, it costs you 19 heat (9.5 each). Fire 3, and you get 40.5 heat. That's not technically a hard cap, but it is effectively one.

Likewise fire 2 cERLL's in live, take 20 heat. 0.5 seconds later, fire two more for 20 more heat. However, if you press that fire button 0.4999999s after the first bunch, you're now generating a total of 59.2 heat - 19.2 extra heat because of being slightly under 0.5s.

On the PTS, firing 2 cERLL's is 20 heat, but if you fire 2, and half a second later fire two more, it's 46 heat - just a 2 point penalty due to that 0.5s. If you fire it in 0.4s, it's a ~3 point heat penalty. Fire all four together, and it's a 7 point heat penalty, so you don't want to alpha them, but the penalty gradually subsides over time after firing, so you don't go from no penalty to OMGWTFHEAT

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Basically, "energy draw" (aka damage cap) limits weapons that aren't limited by heat (e.g. Gauss).

It does have its issues, though.

Well, it limits heat based weapons too; it's just Ghost Heat expanded to encompass everything and not be avoidable.

That's always been a major problem with Ghost Heat: It was established to stop heavy alpha strikes, but only impacts specific weapon combinations so it can be worked around.

Ghost Heat is the devil, and it can die in a fire. ED is imperfect as well (certainly needs tweaks, like lower laser and SRM draw) but is far, far superior across the board.

Most importantly, ED actually limits gameplay options way less than GH does, as GH penalties are generally so extreme as to effectively be hard caps, while ED penalties range from very minor to severe at worst, but nowhere near as bad as GH penalties get.

[thisisxerxes]

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

You do realise that energy draw is a system that imposes soft caps instead of the much harder caps that Ghost Heat currently imposes.

You understand the currently existing Ghost Heat, don't you? Or, do you NOT understand it, but think Energy Draw (which is actually very simple, and shown in combat on the UI) is still more complex anyways?

Hi. Oh yes. I'm not a fan of ghost heat at all.
But I don't think adding *another* new bandaid mechanic on top of it is the answer.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

thisisxerxes, on 19 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Hi. Oh yes. I'm not a fan of ghost heat at all.
But I don't think adding *another* new bandaid mechanic on top of it is the answer.

The thing is a proper solution (and power draw is actually based off a solution proposed by 3 different people each year since the game went into beta) is not a simple one, there is no "do this and it is all fixed" it is always going to be slowly stitch things back together, trim this and that, and all that fun stuff. An all or nothing approach gets nothing fixed, power draw is hilariously actually PGI being ambitious, just like Infowarfare was supposed to be. Power draw is a step in the right direction that removes ghost heat which is a band-aid for the grievous wound that MWO has with it's current alpha boat set up.

A soft damage cap is all Power Draw is currently, Ghost Heat was a hard cap that you could get around. The Awesome actually can use it's lore load out reasonably of 3 PPC's and a small laser thanks to this system. Yes, Power draw is not perfect, it is far from it, but if you expect perfect solutions you need to realize that you will die waiting for it. Yes go for much further reaching changes so when reality and practicality sets in of what can be done and the negotiations that happen at least you get progress in a direction that is good. Aim for the moon so if you miss at least you are among the stars sort of mentality.

[Wintersdark]

thisisxerxes, on 19 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Hi. Oh yes. I'm not a fan of ghost heat at all.
But I don't think adding *another* new bandaid mechanic on top of it is the answer.

It isn't on top of it. It replaces Ghost Heat, and does so in a far superior manner.

Should other routes have been taken? I'd argue wholly changing the heat system to low cap/high dissipation, and/or implementing a variable/situational CoF adjustment to convergence would work better, but on the other hand that's a massive change to the game which could backfire, and would certainly enrage many.

Energy Draw is in no way worse than Ghost Heat, and in many ways is far superior. It's a flat improvement over a broken system. Is it perfect? No. Are there better ways? Maybe. Probably.

But as far as PGI's changes go, this has been a smash hit.

[ManDaisy]

I think this shows promise. To flat out denounce it when its the farthest progress we've seen so fair is jumping the gun.

[thisisxerxes]

I will say that this is a far better idea than ghost heat, which was absolutely an insane idea.
But, what I mean is...energy draw is an entire new mechanic players have to deal with, on top of the already very intuitive "weapons generate heat" mechanic. Players now have to deal with:
- i'm building a mech, can this fire these weapons at once?
- how much draw does this weapon have? is that a lot?
- what happens when weapons overdraw? do they not fire? do they make extra heat?
- how do I know weapons overdrew? I fired all my ppcs but im not sure they all fired
- how much energy capacity does this mech have?
- are there energy quirks? what mechs are better for draw?
- can I increase my energy capacity? if not why not?
- this weapon used to only draw 1 energy but now it draws 3. my build's broken!

Stuff like that, yknow?
I just think..it's gonna be a whole world of pain ahead.

[ManDaisy]

To put it simply... the weak of mind must be culled. If all games were pandered to the lowest common denominator all games would be a pile of ****.

Edited by ManDaisy, 19 August 2016 - 05:47 PM.

[thisisxerxes]

ManDaisy, on 19 August 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

To put it simply... the weak of mind must be culled. If all games were pandered to the lowest common denominator all games would be a pile of ****.

Needless complexity is just as bad.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

thisisxerxes, on 19 August 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

I will say that this is a far better idea than ghost heat, which was absolutely an insane idea.
But, what I mean is...energy draw is an entire new mechanic players have to deal with, on top of the already very intuitive "weapons generate heat" mechanic. Players now have to deal with:
- i'm building a mech, can this fire these weapons at once?
- how much draw does this weapon have? is that a lot?
- what happens when weapons overdraw? do they not fire? do they make extra heat?
- how do I know weapons overdrew? I fired all my ppcs but im not sure they all fired
- how much energy capacity does this mech have?
- are there energy quirks? what mechs are better for draw?
- can I increase my energy capacity? if not why not?
- this weapon used to only draw 1 energy but now it draws 3. my build's broken!

Stuff like that, yknow?
I just think..it's gonna be a whole world of pain ahead.

Yes this information MUST be put into Power Draw if it were to go live, in all honesty they need to have these features shown in the second round of PTS testing that needs to happen for Power Draw. I would also like a warning that says "power critical" when you lower your energy to the point that firing any weapon on your mech would push you over the edge of your energy capacity, or maybe a hard limit of having it at 5 energy left. Also a ding or something when power is back to full capacity or some sort of audio cue as well as visual with the bar (maybe a light at the top of it for when full and said light is out when not full? Would be reasonably colorblind friendly that way).

[Wintersdark]

thisisxerxes, on 19 August 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

Needless complexity is just as bad.

Agreed! I'm glad, then, that you see why Energy Draw is a much better alternative to Ghost Heat.

After all:



Was not an exercise in simplicity.

[Wintersdark]

thisisxerxes, on 19 August 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

I will say that this is a far better idea than ghost heat, which was absolutely an insane idea.
But, what I mean is...energy draw is an entire new mechanic players have to deal with, on top of the already very intuitive "weapons generate heat" mechanic. Players now have to deal with:
- i'm building a mech, can this fire these weapons at once?

Yes, you can.

Quote

- how much draw does this weapon have? is that a lot?

Yes, draw multiplier should be shown in the weapon tooltip.

Quote

- what happens when weapons overdraw? do they not fire? do they make extra heat?

A tutorial would help here; there should be a Energy Draw addition to the Academy.

Quote

- how do I know weapons overdrew? I fired all my ppcs but im not sure they all fired

If you fired all your PPC's, they all fired. If your weapons overdrew, the bar hit the bottom and there was a warning sound and indicator light.

Quote

- how much energy capacity does this mech have?

Handy UI bar right there on the screen!

Quote

- are there energy quirks? what mechs are better for draw?

Right now, no. It's a system in public test, and as such unfinished.

Quote

- can I increase my energy capacity? if not why not?

No, because the whole point of the system is to limit how much people can fire at once.

Quote

- this weapon used to only draw 1 energy but now it draws 3. my build's broken!

Balance changes break your build? That's a reality of every PvP game ever.

Quote

Stuff like that, yknow?
I just think..it's gonna be a whole world of pain ahead.

No worse than Live right now, and a whole lot better.

[thisisxerxes]

Haha. I don't think anyone's going to defend ghost heat, and I'm sorry if any of you took this thread as "ghost heat good, power draw bad".

Just...power draw bad.
Totally thrilled GH is going away.
Less keen about Power Draw & Heat coexisting, and the hilarity that ensues as PGI try to balance both variables at once, and try to educate new players about it all.

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Yes, you can.

Yes, draw multiplier should be shown in the weapon tooltip.
...

OK, now explain that again to every new player.

Edited by thisisxerxes, 19 August 2016 - 06:06 PM.

[Wintersdark]

thisisxerxes, on 19 August 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

Haha. I don't think anyone's going to defend ghost heat, and I'm sorry if any of you took this thread as "ghost heat good, power draw bad".

Just...power draw bad.
Totally thrilled GH is going away.
Less keen about Power Draw & Heat coexisting, and the hilarity that ensues as PGI try to balance both variables at once, and try to educate new players about it all.


OK, now explain that again to every new player.

Sure, that's always the problem. But some system here is necessary. This is easier to explain to a new user than Ghost Heat though, and doesn't require scary charts and super careful timing of shots.

MWO is not a newbie friendly game. This is an improvement for newbies over Ghost Heat, and that's a good thing.

Sadly, there's not a good solution that's going to work without major game changes. Even though I'm a fan of low-cap/high dissipation, there are severe issues with that route as well. I'm a fan of convergence changes too, situational CoF, but that gets roughly 50% of the playerbase enraged.

There aren't magic bullets here.

But this one change PGI has made? It's a good change, it's a flat improvement over the existing situation, and it doesn't hurt anything.

That's way, way better than Live.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

thisisxerxes, on 19 August 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

Haha. I don't think anyone's going to defend ghost heat, and I'm sorry if any of you took this thread as "ghost heat good, power draw bad".

Just...power draw bad.
Totally thrilled GH is going away.
Less keen about Power Draw & Heat coexisting, and the hilarity that ensues as PGI try to balance both variables at once, and try to educate new players about it all.


OK, now explain that again to every new player.

Power Draw with heat honestly works better as power draw 90% of the time is ignoble if you never ran huge alpha builds that worked by working around ghost heat groupings. Now though ghost heat only comes into play if you are derping more than 30 damage in a single trigger pull or doing more than 20 damage a second. It is pretty darn lenient to players. What is more needed is to make certain new players get it explained as "you can safely do 30 damage or fire 20 damage per second as long as you watch your heat, more than that and you will start to cook your engine" or something like that in the academy. Throw in in mechlab warnings of "hey your mech has a single strike potential of over 30, don't fire everything at once" and "Hey your mech can do more than 20 damage per second with this loadout, take it easy on the trigger so you don't melt your mech".