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Power Draw Encourages Boating.


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#1 Gyrok

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 10:49 AM

Reddit Crosspost: https://www.reddit.c...his_new_system/


This was posted by Tarogato on reddit.

Quote


I'm going to start by saying that I don't think energy draw accomplishes any of the goals set out by the developer. If this mechanic were introduced to MWO, I would most likely quit playing the game because I won't enjoy it as much anymore. The present day ghost heat on the live server is a much better system and fosters a much more enjoyable and diverse meta. I'm happy with the current sitation on live and I'm happy with the current TTK. While I think it would be nice for ghost heat to be more transparent to new players, I don't think it's such a huge problem that it merits a completely new mechanic to replace it, one which is flawed at the fundamental level. Let's talk about why I think that is.



First,

light mechs are pretty much unaffected. Okay.
a few medium mechs are pretty severely affected because they skirt awkwardly around the 30 damage cap. NVA, SHD, SCR, HBK, and HBK-IIC are first to come to mind.
heavies fair pretty well because they can effectively distribute their alpha into two 30-damage half-alphas.
a few assaults are completely boned, like the Atlas, Gargoyle, Executioner, the gauss-vomit DWF, yet the BNC and BLR can reasonably alpha 5 LPL now? Wat.
In general, lasers and brawling seem to get the short end of the stick, while PPFLD alphas gets buffed slightly. Not to the point of hexa-PPC Stalkerpocalypse, but... it's a noticeable shift. Mind you, PPFLD is already rising in popularity on the live servers as is. It's really quite balanced with laser boating and brawling, and I don't see the need to upset this balance by making such drastic alterations to the heat system at this time.



With the need for the four different weight classes to have different energy caps (otherwise lights would be somewhat overpowered) and possibly even different chassis quirked for different caps (like the NVA and GAR), the whole system becomes much more sophisticated than it looks on the surface. Basically... it's the epitome of the community term "ghost heat" because it's not clear to the end user that 30 or whatever arbitrary number of pseudo-damage is the energy cap and it's not clear to the end user how much energy their weapons will draw. Sure, you might know that SRMs draw 75% of their damage as energy, but now you have this convoluted mess of multiply 8.6 * 5 * 0.75 to figure out that 5x SRM4 pulls 32.25 energy, which is 2.25 excess energy, which is 1.125 ghost heat, which is ... okay so I've got 10 trudubs, so that's 20 heat capacity plus 1.5 * 5 poordubs so my full capacity is 25.75 and 1.125 ghost heat means I'll be seeing around +4% extra that I actually see in game on my heat meter. Holy crap that's a lot of math that isn't explained to the player! That's a problem. That's why I'm still calling this system 'ghost heat' - these calculations are unclear to the player. Even if the mechlab gave you more information, I stil don't think it's enough.



Another problem is that this system encourages boating. Literally the opposite of the designers' intentions. A key example: a Maddog or Timberwolf with 4x SRM6+A + 5x cSPL. On the live client, the ghost heat system encourages me to mix different weapon systems, like lasers + srms, because they don't share heat penalties. However, the energy draw system means that I can't fire SRMs and lasers together. In fact, after firing my SRMs, I have to wait so long for the energy to replenish, that by the time I've fired my SPLs, my SRMs are almost ready to fire again. That's a problem because that means now that my brawler must stare at its target and facetank in much the same manner that an AC/2 facetime build would. You don't have time to torso twist without taking a huge chunk out of your DPS. I see this as a problem, especially considering that under the energy draw system I can boat 5x SRM4+A and alpha strike for days with barely any heat penalty at all - the system encouraged me to boat SRMs instead of mixing different types of weapons. The same goes for combinations of ballistic and missiles, like LB and SRMs which is something you would do on Shadowhawks, clan heavies, or something like the Atlas which now must fire its SRMs and AC20 seperately, waiting long enough in between to avoid heat penalty, thus and giving it less time to torso twist between shots if it wants to maintain its respectable DPS (or alpha-striking, incurring a massive heat penalty, and losing almost all of its sustained DPS, which in turn defeats its purpose as a brawler). This is literally promoting stare-fests and taking skillful torso-twisting out of the game for brawlers. That's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge problem, in my opinion, and a fundamental issue with the system as a whole.



The penalties for high-alpha builds are now less, because they are linear. You can now alpha 5x LPL quite reasonably on the IS side. Running 6x ERLL or PPC boating is also more forgiving. I think the result of these changes - the buffing of long range high-alpha builds, would result in a more passive and alpha-centric playstyle. One of the problems is that brawlers are punished so hard (except for AC/40, which got an incredible buff under this system.) Everything seems to be exactly the opposite of what this system intended to accomplish, making it seem to me like an outright failure.



At this point, I would conclude that the ghost heat system on the live server is miles better for gameplay than the new energy draw system. This new system is not ready - in fact, I'm not even sure what could be done to salvage it. The old ghost heat system encourages you to mix different types of weapons, which is what is good about it. The new draw system encourages you to boat multiple copies the same type of weapon and this is an issue at the fundamental design level. How do you even fix this? I might start by making it so that weapon classes are not linked together - firing SRMs + ballistics together shouldn't incur a penalty, firing LRMs and lasers together shouldn't either. I feel like if I were to redesign this system to the point where I was actually happy with it, the system I would wind up with in the end would basically be the same heatscale system we see on the live servers today - because that's what works and promotes build diversity while punishing excessive boating. If you don't want people alpha-striking ML and LPL together, just create a linked heatscale penalty group for it! Maybe the old ghost heat system makes less sense from the logical or lore standpoint, but in my opinion it is better for gameplay and that is what matters most.



Musings on the specific weapon changes...

Personally, I prefered the gauss charge mechanic. It really helped make the weapon system feel unique, like it rewarded skill even though it wasn't all that hard to use. I would rather have the charge system back, with the limit on charging two gauss simulataneously. I don't like that triple- and quad-gauss builds are literally removed from the game as a universal rule - they aren't even a problem on the live server. It's literally just a fun build that is incredibly risky to run and way outclassed by gauss+PPC combinations. So why does it need to be nuked completley out of the game? Please don't do this.

AC/5 now feels like complete ***. Except maybe on the Mauler, or one or two uberquirked mechs. But generally speaking, AC/5 is now ***. Good luck running it on your Dragons and Wolverines, let alone any mech that isn't super-uber-quirked for it.

I don't like the changes to cLPL. I feel like its damage should have been reduced, not its maxrange. Why in the devil does the IS LPL have its TT damage +1 of 10, while the cLPL gets TT damage +3 of 13? Give the cLPL its range back and make it deal 11 damage instead of 13. Having certain weapons have their maxrange as 2.0x optimal while other certain weapons have their maxrange as 1.5x optimal... is just confusing and convoluted. No, God. No God please no.

Edited by Gyrok, 20 August 2016 - 11:40 AM.


#2 AnTi90d

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 10:53 AM

View PostGyrok, on 20 August 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

Reddit Crosspost: https://www.reddit.c...his_new_system/


This was posted by Targato on reddit.


They want feedback to go here: http://mwomercs.com/...raw-public-test

#3 Ultimax

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:25 AM

Firing mechanics & build efficiency encourage boating.



#4 Novakaine

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:37 AM

Posted Image

#5 Gyrok

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:40 AM

View PostNovakaine, on 20 August 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Posted Image


Try actually reading Tarogato's post.

#6 Kirkland Langue

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:41 AM

View PostAnTi90d, on 20 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:


They don't want feedback

FTFY

#7 Gyrok

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:50 AM

View PostUltimax, on 20 August 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Firing mechanics & build efficiency encourage boating.


True, but this system does *nothing* to discourage it.

The 5 LPL Banshee is horrifying...

#8 Novakaine

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:57 AM

I did.

#9 Chados

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:00 PM

I'm with Novakaine on this one.

The power-draw system is in early testing. What's on PTS now is not what we will see on live. And reading Tarogato's post, I'm seeing things that don't jibe for me. I don't claim to be on his level of understanding of the game, but he's upset about certain mechs losing power and certain play styles getting hit in favor of others. And I'm not sure that the high-alpha builds he's complaining about being hobbled are a bad thing. In fact, I see it as a good thing. He's upset about stare-fests happening over "skill" moves involving fast torso-twisting. Well, I've always thought that it's a little silly for a war machine weighing as much as an Abrams tank to be able to snap its torso to the side and back like a pair of windshield wipers. You ever see a tank turret turn? It takes time. Because physics.

Yeah, the system as currently set up encourages LPL boating and the old gauss/PPC meta. Because the energy rates for everything are the same. Because they haven't tuned the system yet. Give them a chance to tune it up. Most comments off the PTS by vets who are trying the system are overwhelmingly positive. And no, I'm not white knighting here. I'm saying that the PTS has been up less than a freakin' week and the grognards and otaku out there are already poo-poohing what looks to me to be a credible attempt to put a transparent framework in place to fix some long-standing balance issues. Give me large break.

Edited by Chados, 20 August 2016 - 12:03 PM.


#10 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:11 PM

View PostGyrok, on 20 August 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:


True, but this system does *nothing* to discourage it.

The 5 LPL Banshee is horrifying...


The current PTS is on its first round of testing, with a flat baseline across the board, expect changes but....

PGI version of the heatscale does nothing to discourage it, whether it is with GH or ED, nothing negative happens to the mech until heat maxes or exceeds 100%. Myomer bundles operating efficiency decreases as the heat increases.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 August 2016 - 12:12 PM.


#11 Gyrok

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:29 PM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 20 August 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:


The current PTS is on its first round of testing, with a flat baseline across the board, expect changes but....

PGI version of the heatscale does nothing to discourage it, whether it is with GH or ED, nothing negative happens to the mech until heat maxes or exceeds 100%. Myomer bundles operating efficiency decreases as the heat increases.


Nothing negative happens to mechs now...this is GH 2.0. This solution does not actually make boating less incentivized.

#12 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:29 PM

first off @Gyrok,
do you share Tarogato's opinion, or are you just relaying his thoughts on the subject,

edit-

View PostTarl Cabot, on 20 August 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

PGI version of the heatscale does nothing to discourage it, whether it is with GH or ED, nothing negative happens to the mech until heat maxes or exceeds 100%. Myomer bundles operating efficiency decreases as the heat increases.

Russ has said he would like to do other Penalties with higher heat,
but just getting ED working first is most important,

after we may see, movement penalties with higher heat as well as better JJ but them also causing Draw,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 20 August 2016 - 12:30 PM.


#13 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:33 PM

Russ replied to me on twitter, saying that we would possibly get a PTS update early next week.

#14 Gyrok

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:38 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 20 August 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

first off @Gyrok,
do you share Tarogato's opinion, or are you just relaying his thoughts on the subject,

edit-

Russ has said he would like to do other Penalties with higher heat,
but just getting ED working first is most important,

after we may see, movement penalties with higher heat as well as better JJ but them also causing Draw,


I am relaying his thoughts on the subject.

There are some things I agree with, others I do not...however...I felt this should get more exposure.

#15 Appogee

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:56 PM

View PostChados, on 20 August 2016 - 12:00 PM, said:

What's on PTS now is not what we will see on live.


Actually, history shows us that what goes on the PTS is almost always exactly what goes live.

(InfoTech was the one, big exception to that rule.)

#16 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 01:06 PM

View PostAppogee, on 20 August 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:


Actually, history shows us that what goes on the PTS is almost always exactly what goes live.

(InfoTech was the one, big exception to that rule.)


Again, Russ just confirmed a PTS update for next week. You can't base everything off of what happened over a year ago. I had my doubts too about ED, but it released with a solid foundation, and shows that PGI's taking this seriously.

#17 Appogee

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 01:12 PM

View PostGentleman Reaper, on 20 August 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Again, Russ just confirmed a PTS update for next week. You can't base everything off of what happened over a year ago. I had my doubts too about ED, but it released with a solid foundation, and shows that PGI's taking this seriously.

I genuinely hope - for all our sakes - that your faith proves to be justified.

Edited by Appogee, 20 August 2016 - 01:12 PM.


#18 Tordin

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 01:21 PM

They really need to ramp up the heat increase on boating. Seems right now, the penaity on having several lpl r other lasers are to low.

Why is it so only the N.A servers are up for PTS? Im missing something? Because something this important should really cover as many players as possible around the world.

#19 Funkmaster Rick

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 01:29 PM

I agree with that Reddit poster's theory that the ED system (energy draw, get your mind out of the gutter!) encourages sniping. There's some work to be done there. The rest of it is riddled with fallacy. I literally grinned ear to ear and chuckled when I saw him complaining about having to do math in the 'mechlab. Anything that encourages players to think is a good thing.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that some of the traditional sniping weapons, like LPLs and Gauss Rifles, have been nerfed to go with this new system. Somehow I think this Russ fellow might actually be a more qualified game designer than Tarogato.

Edited by Funkmaster Rick, 20 August 2016 - 01:31 PM.


#20 Chados

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 01:34 PM

View PostAppogee, on 20 August 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:


Actually, history shows us that what goes on the PTS is almost always exactly what goes live.

(InfoTech was the one, big exception to that rule.)


Maybe they learned from that. I've said on other threads reposting Tarogato's complaints here that part of PGI's problem is the lack of a truly organized and controlled small-scale player test program. When I worked with Microprose's dev team on the Falcon 4.0 patch program in the late 1990s, Gilman Louie had a guy named Gabriel Turk that did that. He was MPS's face on their beta boards. The only people that had access to the beta boards were the testers. We got the patches a couple *months* before they went live-we'd download them from an FTP server or we'd get a CD in the mail for real big ones. We'd test them and post the results up on the beta board. Sort of like our PTS boards here but more controlled. When I worked with Oleg Maddox's team on the original IL-2 Sturmovik release, we did the same thing-I remember the early IL-2 beta build from when the only aircraft was one IL-2 model. I remember when they introduced the MiG-3 and Bf-109F2 for the first time in the test program. The 109 flew like a UFO, it was the worst flight model I'd ever seen and the 15mm cannon was hopeless. By the time it released, it worked great and IL-2 still is a simulation classic. I worked with Carl "Stormin'" Norman on Flanker 2.0, and Matt Wagner on early versions of DCS as well. And it was the same story. It all started out looking pretty rough but by the end of the test program it was looking much better-built up with feedback from dedicated players.

I got into those programs because I was involved early on in the sim community, I used to fly on the old Su-27 ladders in the 1990s and I was a poster on Martin Kenwright's forum at Digital Image Design when they were releasing "Total Air War." One thing led to another and I ended up working as a beta tester on a lot of old classics because I was writing articles on simulations websites like Simulation Headquarters, where I was on staff for several years. About seven or eight years ago I just got tired of sims, honestly, and I totally gave computer gaming up except for messing with console titles here and there just for fun, I loved "Dead Space" for the story, it's really well written. I'm here because I love Mechwarrior and it is MWO that got me back into gaming.

I think PGI really needs a good, small scale player test program. Recruit 50-100 dedicated players. Tarogato would be a good one to recruit, for example. Wintersdark, Novakaine, all those guys. Even Gyrok. Close the early beta to all but the testers. Grind the heck out of it, tune it, then do a phase 3 open test like we are doing now. You'd have the established forumites pushing the product because they were up to their elbows in helping tune it, and it would do much for PGI's public image. Their beta program comes off to me a little haphazard. That might not be a fair comment, but from my place it's what I'm seeing.





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