12 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

Moved some of this from someone else's thread to get all my thoughts in one place:

Rampage, on 18 August 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

First impressions only at this point:



I have used my two 'go to" Hellbringers so far. One is UAC20/4 ERML. The other is 2 x UAC5/4 ERML. Both of them performed much the same as they do on the live server. I did notice the increased cooldown for the weapons. That was especially noticeable when I forgot to equip cooldown modules on the UAC5 build. I only over heated the UAC20 build when I was involved in a close proximity brawl with a Timber Wolf. I fired an Alpha, then fired my 4 ERML followed by a second Alpha. That shut me down but it also killed the TW. Based on this, if anything I think that the penalties might be a bit lenient but I need to do a lot more testing and I need to run some builds that actually boat weapons for big Alpha strikes to see how they perform now.



My first impression is this is better than what we currently have. The additional UI elements help you manage your weapons. It is hard to say how it will affect TTK because you cannot compare 4 v 4 to 12 v 12. The only thing that may contribute to increased TTK is a few less full on Alphas during a given time period because of longer cool down.



More later after more time with the new system and more builds.



ADDED: Tried my Laser vomit Hellbringer 2 x cLPL/4 x cERML. I can Alpha with it once and hit 78% heat on Terra Therma then fire the 4 ERML when they come off cooldown without shutting down. That actually seems about the same as when I tested it after building it on the live client. It may even be slightly better. The biggest concern is the new, slower rate of cooldown which means I have to be more careful and take a bit more time to cooldown once I have pushed the heat scale too high.



Another UPDATE: Today I stayed out of matches and used Testing Grounds to test some builds. I am now of the opinion that both SRMs and LRMs need a lower Energy modifier number. Even at .75 it is too high for the weapons to be effective IMO. I believe that a modifier of .50 or .66 should be tested. Missiles normally have to be fired in mass to be effective and (overcome AMS ) do significant damage. Presently they run into excessive heat when trying to put enough of them in the air. This is coming from someone that does not normally use missiles.



The Energy Draw bar is replenished too fast. (EDIT: After reading other comments on this subject, I am not as sure about my position on this as I was.) The penalty for exceeding the energy limit is not punitive enough. 1 point of heat for each point of draw over the maximum should be tested. (I am still sure about this!)



A proper heat scale with impacts on movement speed, agility, rate of fire and sensors degradation should be added. These things would effect the Mech during high heat prior to shutdown or suicide. (I am still sure this is needed also)



Tomorrow, I will do my own testing of Gauss, ballistics and PPCs on some Kodiaks to see if my impression of them matches what I have been reading in this forum.

Tested an 4x UAC5/ 2 cERML Kodiak and a 2 x Gauss/ ERPPC/ 3 x ERML Kodiak on Testing grounds today.



I do run the 4 x UAC5 Kodiak on the live server. Not much because I do not really like Assaults but I do have it basiced out. I found the PTS version to feel really clunky in comparison. I tried both double tapping and firing the weapons in pairs. When double tapping I seemed to experience more jams than I ever remember on live. Heat was not a big problem but due to the jams and the longer cooldown it seemed to take a long time to kill anything.



The Gauss/PPC Kodiak was just the opposite. That thing is deadly. Of course, I was shooting at stationary dummy Mechs but firing both Gauss together followed by the ERPPC dropped almost all the Mech in 1-3 shoots. The Lights all died in one. I was surprised how heat was a non factor for that much damage. At this point, the test reinforced by belief that the Gauss needs a higher energy draw factor. If it had an energy draw of 20 and the penalty for exceeding the threshold was 1 for each excess energy then it might be more balanced.



I also tested a single Gauss on my Hellbringer with 4 ERML. It was an effective build with a Mark IV targeting computer and BAP on board. I was never a fan of the Gauss charge up so I usually equipped UACs. I like the weapon as it is now. I just feel it needs to use more energy.

[ScarecrowES]

The more I play it, the less I like it, to be honest.

At first, I was just experimenting with the the handful of my builds that fall into various metas to see how the new system would handle those vs how ghost heat did, and it felt pretty good in that those builds felt exactly the way they do on ghost heat. I then tried some other obvious meta builds that I don't run because I'm not much a fan of meta, and those ran even better than they do on ghost heat.

I started to worry about that point... the meta really shouldn't run be running better.

And then last night I started rolling through all my normal non-meta builds. These were much much much worse. Like unplayable. Here I was, unable to stay cool in mixed builds trying to avoid heat penalties, while meta builds whose ghost heat chains have just been thrown off were consistently wrecking my face.

A system designed to reduce alphas and promote mixed builds has ended up doing the opposite. TTK is the same, if not shorter, even on a 4v4 server - and that's scary. The gulf between the superiority of existing metas and everything else has widened instead of narrowed. It seems you're actually encouraged to alpha no, which I hate.

[Cy Mitchell]

That is interesting. I have run my "go to" builds which are mixed ballistics/laser Hellbringers and I have not noticed much difference between the PTS and live server with those builds. I still need to test my Novas.

I do think exceeding the energy limit needs to be more punitive and some adjustments are needed for energy draw on some weapons. I am still inexperienced enough with Ghost Heat that I remember that I did not enjoy having to find the loop holes to circumvent it. This system is at least more transparent.

[ScarecrowES]

Rampage, on 20 August 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

That is interesting. I have run my "go to" builds which are mixed ballistics/laser Hellbringers and I have not noticed much difference between the PTS and live server with those builds. I still need to test my Novas.

I do think exceeding the energy limit needs to be more punitive and some adjustments are needed for energy draw on some weapons. I am still inexperienced enough with Ghost Heat that I remember that I did not enjoy having to find the loop holes to circumvent it. This system is at least more transparent.

Hellbringers aren't very well-gunned for the class. They're still within the limit of what's controllable because you're still talking only 2 groups with simple timing. Lasers, tap, tap, cool, lasers, tap, tap, cool. Still strictly worse than under ghost heat, because you're still incurring some penalties than what you'd have on Live, but this is a pretty non-offending mech example. You're using UAC5's on that build. I find it much easier to incur penalties with the UAC10 in the same config.

It gets worse as you go up the weight scale though. By the time you're into the assault class, mixed builds get worse. It might have a lot to do with Clan UACs and other DOT weapons, to be honest. SRMs can still get around significant heat penalties... and run strictly cooler for the same exceeding tube counts than under GH. But because the "loophole" has been closed, lasers and SRMs don't work nearly as well as pure lasers or pure SRMs. You're penalized less for boating and alphaing than mixing and staggering, which sucks. Mixed LRMs are even worse.

I think, to be honest, some tweaking of values might solve some of the problems. Reducing LRM draw is clearly needed. Even 50% would be too much. UACs too... reduced to spread values at 75% maybe. Drawing twice for a double tap is penalizing the weapon twice. If you're going to do that, then significantly reduce the jam chance. I think PGI has forgotten that this is a heat mechanic, not a balancing mechanic, and that weapons have other factors than damage that clue in to balance.

Even better would be Navid's dual meter mechanic. Separate energy weapons from ammo weapons, then reduce each draw meter accordingly... helps curb the new higher alphas AND discourages boating.

[Tarl Cabot]

Below is what I see as an issue, whether it is Ghost Heat (based on number of weapons and the damage they do) vs Energy Draw (based on the actual damage, regardless of the number of weapons), is that we still have a one-trick pony with the Heat Scale. Nothing happens to the pilot nor his/her mech when riding throwing out the heat UNTIL the scale pegs at 100%+.

PGI keeps throwing different things at the game at an attempt to limit how much damage it thrown downfield. GH was long vs med vs short, based on weapon type but until that mech hit 100% pls it still had full speed forward and full reverse. ED is now, even after adjustments, is based on total damage but that mech is still moving full speed forward and reverse.

With a semi-functional heat scale, not the semi-comatose version we have now, those players that ride that heatscale should experience negative effects before it even hits 100%. A slowed/less agile mech can not reach the next line of cover as quickly nor twist as quickly to spread incoming fire, nor can a mech reverse back into cover as quickly/twist as quickly to avoid return fire.

The only way PGI could actual CAP damage is stop the ability to fire said damage all at one time. Heat with a semi-comatose heatscale, whether it be the Live GH or the PTS ED, may alter a few things but still make the mech, as it is relocating for its next shot, impervious to that heatscale until it hits 100%.....

Quote

The main reason it turns into a brawl fest so quickly is because it is 4vs4, not an 8vs8 or 12vs12, so there is no worry about being focused down by 5+ mechs at one time, lots of cover to move before engagement, etc. The same reason people had to adjust their weapon loads on light/med for FP Scout drops.

And the other issue is that heat has no game consequences UNTIL it hits 100+. I really do not see why PGI even keeps the heatscale in the game, it makes it appear is if it is the actual band-aid but then what to do with the heatsinks?. PGI could remove that band-aid and give the Energy draw hard cap and heatsinks turn into power sinks...

The Power Draw LOOKS to be more visible in-game vs the current Ghost Heat, but there is still nothing in game to make peoples THINK about their next action, and not from an immediate shutdown if they fire that next weapon(s) but from the mech's myomer bundles reaction times slowing down, causing the mech itself to slow down and become less agile.

[Cy Mitchell]

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

Hellbringers aren't very well-gunned for the class. They're still within the limit of what's controllable because you're still talking only 2 groups with simple timing. Lasers, tap, tap, cool, lasers, tap, tap, cool. Still strictly worse than under ghost heat, because you're still incurring some penalties than what you'd have on Live, but this is a pretty non-offending mech example. You're using UAC5's on that build. I find it much easier to incur penalties with the UAC10 in the same config.

I actually have one with 2 x UAC5/4 x ERML, one with 1 x UAC10/4 x MPL, one with UAC20/4 x ERML and I also tested a laser vomit version and one with Gauss/ 4 x ERML. I tried them all on PTS and all of them are OK. As you said, the Hellbringer is a non-offending Mech and not meta. Maybe that is its attraction for me. Actually no "maybe" about it. If the Gauss comes to the live server without the charge up I will change the UAC20 build to a Gauss build. The extra projectile velocity just makes it much better than the 20 IMO.

[ScarecrowES]

Rampage, on 20 August 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

I actually have one with 2 x UAC5/4 x ERML, one with 1 x UAC10/4 x MPL, one with UAC20/4 x ERML and I also tested a laser vomit version and one with Gauss/ 4 x ERML. I tried them all on PTS and all of them are OK. As you said, the Hellbringer is a non-offending Mech and not meta. Maybe that is its attraction for me. Actually no "maybe" about it. If the Gauss comes to the live server without the charge up I will change the UAC20 build to a Gauss build. The extra projectile velocity just makes it much better than the 20 IMO.

And your penalty for exceeding the draw limit is a fraction of what the AC/20 will cause you.

[Cy Mitchell]

Tarl Cabot, on 20 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

Below is what I see as an issue, whether it is Ghost Heat (based on number of weapons and the damage they do) vs Energy Draw (based on the actual damage, regardless of the number of weapons), is that we still have a one-trick pony with the Heat Scale. Nothing happens to the pilot nor his/her mech when riding throwing out the heat UNTIL the scale pegs at 100%+.

PGI keeps throwing different things at the game at an attempt to limit how much damage it thrown downfield. GH was long vs med vs short, based on weapon type but until that mech hit 100% pls it still had full speed forward and full reverse. ED is now, even after adjustments, is based on total damage but that mech is still moving full speed forward and reverse.

With a semi-functional heat scale, not the semi-comatose version we have now, those players that ride that heatscale should experience negative effects before it even hits 100%. A slowed/less agile mech can not reach the next line of cover as quickly nor twist as quickly to spread incoming fire, nor can a mech reverse back into cover as quickly/twist as quickly to avoid return fire.

The only way PGI could actual CAP damage is stop the ability to fire said damage all at one time. Heat with a semi-comatose heatscale, whether it be the Live GH or the PTS ED, may alter a few things but still make the mech, as it is relocating for its next shot, impervious to that heatscale until it hits 100%.....

I could not agree with this more and Russ did mention that adding a heat scale with negative consequences to high heat was a possibility in the future with this system. We can hope but there will be a deafening outcry when Mechs start moving slower or weapons start shooting slower because the player has Override engaged and is riding the heat limit like they do now.

[Cy Mitchell]

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

And your penalty for exceeding the draw limit is a fraction of what the AC/20 will cause you.

The UAC20 was the only build that caused me any sort of problems on PTS due to double tapping twice in a row. Test and learn!

[ScarecrowES]

Rampage, on 20 August 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

The UAC20 was the only build that caused me any sort of problems on PTS due to double tapping twice in a row. Test and learn!

Interestingly, my two favorite Warhawks - one with energy and LRMs (1 of 3 LRM mechs I have) and one with all 3 types of weapons - absolutely can not work under ED. LRMs are way too hard to manage with any other weapon with ED... and all three weapons together... forget it. Only the 4xPPC version works now, and that's completely non-viable in the live game.

Lesson learned... more boating, less mixing. Very sad.

[Cy Mitchell]

First iteration. Do not give up hope yet.

[Cy Mitchell]

Got around to testing my MPL Nova on Terra Therma test map.It is still viable. I did not record hard data but it works similar to how it does on the live server.. Still need to test the SPL version and maybe a ballistic/laser version.

I also tried a PPC Summoner. What a piece of crap. Virtually every Mech I have tested kills faster than that thing does. I was too disgusted to do much in the way of heat testing because I have no interest in using it.

[I Peed My Pants]

i pretty much concur. penalties shouldn't be extra heat, they should be reduced mobility/reload speeds etc. I posted my on thread with similar ideas too - but yea, the choice shouldn't be between more/less heat, but more/less mobility and dps (this is kind of achieved with heat, but very indirectly and thus messily imo, particularly given excess heat creates self harm/suicide). going over your 'stored energy' should penalise mech speed, reload times, perhaps even fire duration for uac/lasers etc, and even ams/ecm effectiveness. It'd be good to add something in to counteract these negatives too (like heatsinks do for heat) such as Aux generators or capacitor banks, to increase recharge and increase max alpha respectively. basically, allowing high alphas, but with direct penalties and/or reduced dps (from replacing heatsinks with capacitors) as a result, that can kick in regardless of your heat levels.

Tarl Cabot, on 20 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

Below is what I see as an issue, whether it is Ghost Heat (based on number of weapons and the damage they do) vs Energy Draw (based on the actual damage, regardless of the number of weapons), is that we still have a one-trick pony with the Heat Scale. Nothing happens to the pilot nor his/her mech when riding throwing out the heat UNTIL the scale pegs at 100%+.

PGI keeps throwing different things at the game at an attempt to limit how much damage it thrown downfield. GH was long vs med vs short, based on weapon type but until that mech hit 100% pls it still had full speed forward and full reverse. ED is now, even after adjustments, is based on total damage but that mech is still moving full speed forward and reverse.

With a semi-functional heat scale, not the semi-comatose version we have now, those players that ride that heatscale should experience negative effects before it even hits 100%. A slowed/less agile mech can not reach the next line of cover as quickly nor twist as quickly to spread incoming fire, nor can a mech reverse back into cover as quickly/twist as quickly to avoid return fire.

The only way PGI could actual CAP damage is stop the ability to fire said damage all at one time. Heat with a semi-comatose heatscale, whether it be the Live GH or the PTS ED, may alter a few things but still make the mech, as it is relocating for its next shot, impervious to that heatscale until it hits 100%.....