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Is The New System Worth The Change Over Cost And Problems?


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#41 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:51 AM

View Postdavoodoo, on 23 August 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

cac5 cuac5 got penatly and they arent even linked, lb5x got none.
You can individually adjust weapons...

Weapons adjusted individually and within specific groups...
Do you have ANY idea of how Ghost Heat works?

because CAC5 and CUAC5 are individual weapons, you can run 3xCAC5 and 3xCUAC5 without any ghost heat.

That's the whole damn problem. What part of this isn't clear? Why bother having 3 limit penalties on each when you can just combine them and ignore it? If you put weapons into their own groups (re: standalone weapons) then you can ONLY control that weapon, not it combined with anything else.

Quote

Want to stop ghost head medlas llas mixed builds??

You link large lasers large pulse lasers medium pulse lasers and medium lasers together now you cant fire that mixed alpha without gh...
Then you have mixed SL/MPL builds being unrestricted. Weapons can only belong to one group.

If SL+ML is restricted, and ERLL+LL+LPL is restricted, ML+LPL cannot be restricted. If you have SL+ML+LPL and ERLL+LL, then LL+LPL cannot be restricted.

#42 davoodoo

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:53 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Do you have ANY idea of how Ghost Heat works?

because CAC5 and CUAC5 are individual weapons, you can run 3xCAC5 and 3xCUAC5 without any ghost heat.

and?? have i said that they should??

ed is basically ghost heat where everything is linked...

6 mlas
3 llas
3 lpl
3 ppc
3 erppc
1 ac20
2 ac10
6 ac5
6 uac5
4 lb10x(because cluster)
and so on.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 August 2016 - 10:54 AM.


#43 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:55 AM

View Postdavoodoo, on 23 August 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

More?? no, if you start adjusting everything it will however end like this
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

But with every weapon linked together...


No, because that's not how ghost heat linked groups work.

In Ghost Heat, EVERY weapon fired together in a group uses the highest penalty of the weapons fired. Thus, fire 2 LRM5 and 1 LRM 20, and you use the LRM20 penalty multiplier.

In ED, each weapon being fired is using it's own draw modifier to determine how much energy it draws. Thus, weapons are individually tunable.


All weapons will end up with their own ED values - though these will tend to be grouped, with spread weapons drawing less and PPFLD drawing more - that's for sure. But because the penalties aren't like Ghost Heat, it's individually tunable so having alpha strikes that break the overall limit doesn't just make them unusable, nor does it cause problems when you're only using one larger weapon and multiple smaller ones (see LRM example).


ED is Ghost Heat 2.0. No doubt about it. But ED is a highly tunable GH 2.0, one that can be used to bring much better weapon balance and control to alpha vs. efficiency without the stupid binary issues of GH.

#44 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:57 AM

Still don't how you make boating the same weapon not the obvious choice when all weapons draw from the same pool. Weapon tweaking might change what weapon is being boated but won't do anything to encourage mixing weapons.

#45 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:59 AM

View Postdavoodoo, on 23 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

and?? have i said that they should??

ed is basically ghost heat where everything is linked...

6 mlas
3 llas
3 lpl
3 ppc
3 erppc
1 ac20
2 ac10
6 ac5
6 uac5
4 lb10x(because cluster)
and so on.


Except because everything is linked, and individual weapons are tunable, you can for example have:
2PPC
4SRM6

being the max allowable before penalties, so that's still there, BUT!

You can have 6xSRM4, 4xSRM6, and any combination of the two adding up to whatever amount of SRM damage you feel is appropriate. That's not possible with Ghost Heat. Ghost Heat will just allow whatever the SRM6 limits are as soon as you have one SRM6 in the build.

And, of course, ED allows control over how many ML's you can combine with SRM's in a combined strike, or how many AC5's and Large Lasers, or whatever else.

#46 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:04 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 23 August 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

Still don't how you make boating the same weapon not the obvious choice when all weapons draw from the same pool. Weapon tweaking might change what weapon is being boated but won't do anything to encourage mixing weapons.


1) Because you're limited in how many of one weapon you choose via hardpoints
2) Because different weapons have different advantages/disadvantages - combining ballistics and lasers, for example, can be an excellent means of getting more damage per heat overall.

With that said, ED isn't about encouraging or discouraging which weapons you choose. And, to be fair, it shouldn't be. Many mechs are fundamentally designed around boating, why must they suffer?

Encouraging mixing weapons purely to get larger alphas is every bit as much a problem as encouraging boating weapons to get bigger alphas.

Maybe a player is just bad and finds it hard to manage different weapon types. This ensures that the maximum instantaneous damage output is similar (adjusted according to damage profile hence ED rating) whether you're boating or mixing.



Edit: Hence why my 122 alpha cool running Direwolf was a problem. Being able to dish out three consecutive 122+ pt alphas, then drop to ~70 point alphas while cooling off was an excellent example of where Ghost Heat totally falls down.

Edited by Wintersdark, 23 August 2016 - 11:07 AM.


#47 Mystere

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:05 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

because CAC5 and CUAC5 are individual weapons, you can run 3xCAC5 and 3xCUAC5 without any ghost heat.


Lets' be fair here. The fact that PGI did not put CACs and CUACs in the same bucket is their fault, not necessarily GH's. There is absolutely nothing about GH that could have stopped them from doing so.


View PostWintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Then you have mixed SL/MPL builds being unrestricted. Weapons can only belong to one group.

If SL+ML is restricted, and ERLL+LL+LPL is restricted, ML+LPL cannot be restricted. If you have SL+ML+LPL and ERLL+LL, then LL+LPL cannot be restricted.


And again, GH could have had rules like (for example only!!!):
  • 3 Small = 2 Medium = 1 Large, for lasers
  • 4 AC/UAC2 = 3 AC/UAC5 = 2 AC/UAC10 = 1 AC/UAC20 for autocannons
but PGI did not do so.

Edited by Mystere, 23 August 2016 - 11:12 AM.


#48 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:17 AM

View PostMystere, on 23 August 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

Lets' be fair here. The fact that PGI did not put CACs and CUACs in the same bucket is their fault, not necessarily GH's. There is absolutely nothing about GH that could have stopped them from doing so.
It IS a fault of GH's. Don't focus on the weapon itself, my example there was specifically in explaining why weapons cannot be adjusted individually within GH. Daavadoo claimed they could be, and used the CAC and CUAC as an example.

My point was that under ghost heat, a weapon is either:
1) In a group, and thus combined under the worst grouped weapon's penalties
2) Not in a group, and thus can be freely combined with any other weapons.

Quote

And again, GH could have had rules like (for example only!!!):
  • 3 Small = 2 Medium = 1 Large, for lasers
  • 4 AC/UAC2 = 3 AC/UAC5 = 2 AC/UAC10 = 1 AC/UAC20 for autocannons
but PGI did not do so.
But that's basically what ED does, that's kind of the whole point of ED. You can argue that that right there is exactly what PGI is doing, building a Ghost Heat 2.0 that allows granular combinations of any weapons.

#49 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:21 AM

View PostMystere, on 23 August 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Well, there is a precedent: the information warfare PTS. Posted Image

We also know that PGI will eventually buckle under constant whining/complaints/pressure. As proof I give: artillery and air strikes. Posted Image Posted Image
However, there is a hell of a lot of people who're really quite happy with ED - not necessarily the current numbers, but the system overall as compared to GH that it's replacing. There's nowhere near the amount of resistance. As much as I'd love to see enough pressure to get situational CoF or a rebuilt base heat heat system, you can never get enough people behind either to generate enough pressure.


Quote

What davoodoo is probably saying is that ED can potentially end up as complicated as GH if each weapon eventually gets its own draw.

It will end up as complicated as GH, ultimately. However, unlike GH it's a lot easier to present the information and most importantly it allows restriction of any sets of weapons and thus does not have the groups issues I've outlined above.

After all, you can simply add "Energy Draw: x" to the weapon tooltips, and you fully communicate everything a player needs to know for ED at mechlab time.

#50 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:22 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:


1) Because you're limited in how many of one weapon you choose via hardpoints
2) Because different weapons have different advantages/disadvantages - combining ballistics and lasers, for example, can be an excellent means of getting more damage per heat overall.

With that said, ED isn't about encouraging or discouraging which weapons you choose. And, to be fair, it shouldn't be. Many mechs are fundamentally designed around boating, why must they suffer?

Encouraging mixing weapons purely to get larger alphas is every bit as much a problem as encouraging boating weapons to get bigger alphas.

Maybe a player is just bad and finds it hard to manage different weapon types. This ensures that the maximum instantaneous damage output is similar (adjusted according to damage profile hence ED rating) whether you're boating or mixing.



Edit: Hence why my 122 alpha cool running Direwolf was a problem. Being able to dish out three consecutive 122+ pt alphas, then drop to ~70 point alphas while cooling off was an excellent example of where Ghost Heat totally falls down.


Ideally that sounds fine, but the fact is, combining non-synergistic weapons is never as effective as combining weapons with more synergy. 4 UAC10s or 4 cLPLs will always be a better loadout then 2 cLPLs and 2 UAC10s under this system, especially because you hit the draw limit constantly and really have to stagger fire your Lasers and UACs. This is just one example...

It's literally more heat efficient to bring 4 UAC10s and fire all 4, wait a second, then doubletap, and keep up that pattern, than it is to mix lasers in instead. That sucks!

Its not fun! Why can't I just double-tap my UACs and then fire my lasers right after? The build is hot enough and requires enough face time, it doesn't need more of either.

Its "Common sense mech legislation to protect the lives of the underhive" is all I keep hearing.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 August 2016 - 11:22 AM.


#51 Mystere

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:23 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

It IS a fault of GH's. Don't focus on the weapon itself, my example there was specifically in explaining why weapons cannot be adjusted individually within GH. Daavadoo claimed they could be, and used the CAC and CUAC as an example.

My point was that under ghost heat, a weapon is either:
1) In a group, and thus combined under the worst grouped weapon's penalties
2) Not in a group, and thus can be freely combined with any other weapons.

But that's basically what ED does, that's kind of the whole point of ED. You can argue that that right there is exactly what PGI is doing, building a Ghost Heat 2.0 that allows granular combinations of any weapons.


That is precisely my point. PGI did not have to start from scratch. They could have added to or made some changes to GH instead of proclaiming they created a new system and giving it a new name.

#52 Mystere

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:26 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

However, there is a hell of a lot of people who're really quite happy with ED ...


For now. But, I have this nagging feeling the whining will significantly ramp up once it is released.

#53 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:28 AM

View PostMystere, on 23 August 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:


That is precisely my point. PGI did not have to start from scratch. They could have added to or made some changes to GH instead of proclaiming they created a new system and giving it a new name.

So your objection is that they gave it a new name? Ok.

But... who else cares if it has a new name? All I care about is how it works.

Actually just changing GH values without fundamentally changing the system wouldn't work, for the reasons I've already covered. It's not a flexible enough system.


As I've said all along, it's Ghost Heat 2.0, which is simply a more tunable GH1.0 with a UI for ease of use. It's a bandaid, but at least it's not a bandaid on top of old bandaids (PGI's normal MO) and instead is a crappy old bandaid being replaced with a newer, better bandaid.

Not ideal, but a step forward at least.

Edited by Wintersdark, 23 August 2016 - 11:29 AM.


#54 Mystere

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:38 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

So your objection is that they gave it a new name? Ok.


Funny. Posted Image

No, PGI could have made changes to GH to mimic most of what ED is doing, with the notable exception of the "all weapons are always linked" property of the latter. That would have encouraged weapons diversity. ED just isn't seem to be cutting it in that aspect.

Edited by Mystere, 23 August 2016 - 11:38 AM.


#55 davoodoo

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:50 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:


No, because that's not how ghost heat linked groups work.

In Ghost Heat, EVERY weapon fired together in a group uses the highest penalty of the weapons fired. Thus, fire 2 LRM5 and 1 LRM 20, and you use the LRM20 penalty multiplier.

In ED, each weapon being fired is using it's own draw modifier to determine how much energy it draws. Thus, weapons are individually tunable.


All weapons will end up with their own ED values - though these will tend to be grouped, with spread weapons drawing less and PPFLD drawing more - that's for sure. But because the penalties aren't like Ghost Heat, it's individually tunable so having alpha strikes that break the overall limit doesn't just make them unusable, nor does it cause problems when you're only using one larger weapon and multiple smaller ones (see LRM example).


ED is Ghost Heat 2.0. No doubt about it. But ED is a highly tunable GH 2.0, one that can be used to bring much better weapon balance and control to alpha vs. efficiency without the stupid binary issues of GH.

Ive did tests if anything changed since i last tested and i got rather interesting results...

1 lrm20 jumped my heat on forest colony from 3 to 10
2 lrm 20 jumped it to 16
1 lrm 5 to 5
2 lrm 5 to 8
1 lrm20 and 1 lrm5 to 13
1 lrm 20 and 2 lrm5 to 19
2 lrm 20 and 1 lrm5 to to 24
2 lrm 20 and 2 lrm5 to 34(clearly this is where ghost heat kicked in)
3lrm 5 to 12
and tbh it fits with what mwo heat simulator shows.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

3 lrm 5 generate 1 ghost heat.
2 lrm 20 and 1 lrm 5 generate 3 ghost(as much as table shows)
2 lrm20 and 2 lrm5 generate 8 ghost(as much as table shows)
1 lrm 20 and 2 lrm5 generate 1 ghost heat
1 lrm 20 and 3 lrm5 generate 2.6 ghost heat(1 + lrm5 penatly as i guess lrm20 is treated as another lrm5 for this purpose)
4 lrm5 generate 2.6 ghost heat(again 1 + lrm5 penatly)

14 dhs used for tests on mastered stk3h.

So yeah, it could be done using ghost heat.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 August 2016 - 11:59 AM.


#56 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 02:24 PM

View PostMystere, on 23 August 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:


Funny. Posted Image

No, PGI could have made changes to GH to mimic most of what ED is doing, with the notable exception of the "all weapons are always linked" property of the latter. That would have encouraged weapons diversity. ED just isn't seem to be cutting it in that aspect.


Except for that the "all weapons are linked" property is a major part of the design of ED and indeed is the goal.

Again, because as per my laser comment, if ERLL, LL, and LPL are linkedand SL/SPL/ML/MPL are linked, ML and LPL cannot be linked.

For the same reason, SRM and ML cannot be linked.

If they didn't care about the above, then they wouldn't have bothered. They DO care about the above, though, and specifically are looking to controll heavy mixed alphas.

GH cannot do that.

#57 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 02:36 PM

View Postdavoodoo, on 23 August 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

So yeah, it could be done using ghost heat.


Except for the above. They want to control combined alphas. The LRM's are grouped. You cannot control combined alphas with ungrouped weapons via ghost heat at all.

In your LRM testing, what you're not seeing the the factor. The heat multiplier. The Ghost Heat thread Paul posted when they implemented ghost heat; the heat penalty is calculated using the highest factor of fired weapons in the linked group.

In the case of LRM's, I don't know if they share the same factor or not - I suppose you could math the Smurfy's charts, or alternatively check the XML files to see, but it doesn't really matter.

That's what gets in the way of large groups/choosing how much penalty individual weapons have.

But even without, they specifically want to control *all* alphas.





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