14 replies to this topic

[Not A Real RAbbi]

So, first let me say THANKS A BUNCH to the folks at PGI for running this on a PTS. It appears that at least SOME of them have been working through the weekend on this as well, and as someone who just got done working 12 days straight (DAT OVERTIME THO!) without break, stopping a few college kids from accidentally killing themselves, etc., I get that weekends suck hard.

Okay. To the title then. IF this is all that power draw is doing, adding a little extra GHOST HEAT when you go over the limit on energy consumption, then what is the damned point? Just leave us with ghost heat 1.x, and go back to the drawing board.

I went screwing around with a BLR-1G on Boreal Vault in Testing Grounds. I can get away with mashing the fun button (ALPHA) with 5x ERLL on that thing now.

My 6x cSPL ACH? EZPZ, alpha all you like. Stay off the JJs, and you'll be quite alright.

This was supposed to STOP the alphas, not ENABLE them.

Maybe there's something behind the scenes that we're not being told, about what exactly PGI hopes to learn from this. Maybe it's not the obvious. Got it.

But MAN, what's in the PTS right now is actually making it EASIER, not HARDER, to alpha big with those hitscan laser weapons.

So yeah. What's the point, then?

[davoodoo]

Only thing ive seen this do is killing medium and large laser mix...

Instead ppl just pack lpls...

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

The point was to test if the mechanics are working. They will adjust values of the weapons so you wont be able to do what you did. They can change the penalty easily by increasing the number from 0.5 to 1 for example, doubling the heat penalty.
They can also adjust the energy draw for each weapon individually.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 21 August 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

The point was to test if the mechanics are working. They will adjust values of the weapons so you wont be able to do what you did. They can change the penalty easily by increasing the number from 0.5 to 1 for example, doubling the heat penalty.
They can also adjust the energy draw for each weapon individually.

You know how many mechs i need to chagne to accomodate to this new system compared to old one??

2 out of 28, both clan laser boats.

Might have aswell linked mediums to larges in ghost heat...

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[Mystere]

Twinkleblade, on 21 August 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

The point was to test if the mechanics are working. They will adjust values of the weapons so you wont be able to do what you did. They can change the penalty easily by increasing the number from 0.5 to 1 for example, doubling the heat penalty.

The fear, if you're not sensing it, is that PGI might botch that one. They unfortunately do have a history of doing so.

Twinkleblade, on 21 August 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

They can also adjust the energy draw for each weapon individually.

If not done delicately, it could end up just as complicated as Ghost Heat.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Mystere, on 21 August 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

The fear, if you're not sensing it, is that PGI might botch that one. They unfortunately do have a history of doing so.

Sadly, seems true. The minimap debacle of 2016 looms over this, for instance.

Quote

If not done delicately, it could end up just as complicated as Ghost Heat.

Already somewhat MORE complicated, and for what? Similar result, almost the same. BLR-2C with 3x LPL, 3x ML? Used to fire one side at a time, so as to not get too hot. Kept it to 3 LPL to avoid ghost heat, and filled in with mediums. Now? Fire one side, then the other. Keep it at 3 LPL so that firing them comes up short of dipping into the negative-energy penalty.

In other words, SAME S**T DIFFERENT DAY.

Look, if they ditch the whole thing, I DO hope they keep the IMPROVED heat scale on the HUD. That's a good change. I like it.

But to put merely another heat penalty on top of this energy thing? Man, that's weak. Ghost Heat 1.x is a better solution, if you're just going to use HEAT for a penalty.

Instead, and I know this is probably a major undertaking for PGI to implement, how about some/all of the following:

- ANY time the energy pool drops below 0, a penalty is incurred for 3.0 seconds (unless otherwise noted)
- As long as the pool energy is below 0, HUD will scramble (similar to when within the 90m radius of an uncountered enemy ECM)
- If the 0-limit is exceeded by 10 or more, the HUD effect will last 3.0 seconds plus 0.1 for every 1 point beyond -10, AFTER the energy returns to >0.
- While energy pool is below 0, maximum speed is reduced by 25%. When the pool is exceeded by 10 points or more, speed is reduced for 3.0 seconds plus 0.1 for every 1 point beyond -10, AFTER energy returns to >0.
- Jump Jets cannot be used while energy is at/below 0. If Jump Jets are in use when energy drops below 0, they will immediately cease to operate. Jump Jet fuel will NOT begin increasing until energy returns to >0. (There's your anti-poptart, Russ.)
- Jump Jets will consume energy to use, at a rate of the jump jets' total weight (in energy points) per second.
- When energy is at or below 0, LRM and SSRM lock-on will be suspended. Active locks are lost, and current lock attempt will be reset, until energy returns to >0.
- Active probes and ECM will cease to function while energy is at/below 0. If energy exceeds -10, then affected systems will remain inactive for 3.0 seconds plus 0.1 per every 1 point below -10 AFTER energy returns to >0.

Et cetera. Use your imaginations. Go wild. Get crazy with the cheezWhiz. Hell, just have it suspend all mech quirks until 3.0 seconds after energy returns above zero. THAT will shake things up a bit. "Oh my beautifully enquirkened mech! It is now so fail!" You're welcome, Russ and Paul.

[Wibble in a Clan can]

What is the point???

The point is that it is a penalty applied directly to damage- rather than an indirect method of balancing damage output (such as heat,quirks, ghost heat etc). This makes it easier to tweak for balance.

It is NOT meant to stop alphas- quite the contrary it is designed to accommodate this style of play along side DPS. Says so right in the notes- hardly "behind the scenes". However now if you alpha, you take a DPS penalty...so you can't get best of both worlds by mixing weapons to avoid the heat penalty.

It is upfront- players can see the energy draw of weapons and build/play accordingly (you may be used to GH by now- but may all prospective new players are not- any game that needs reference to a 3rd party website to make sense deserves to die- and that's what MWO has been slowly doing).

P D is also not as binary- if you split your fire and miss time by .002 of a second you don't get the full alpha penalty as you would with GH. So its more intuitive/less arbitrarily punishing.

aaaand last but not least- this PTS (not just P D) finally gives MG's, AC2's & Flamers some love (comparatively- still wont be uberweapons) which ppl have been demanding for ages. Frankly- the PTS is MUCH better than live AS IS. Although it will likely get better with some tweaks. And since they have already done the lions share of work to implement already- what you should be asking is what's the point of holding onto ghost heat?

Edited by WibbsScrapMerc, 22 August 2016 - 04:45 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

The point of ED, much like WibbsScrapMerc mentioned, is making alpha strikes a more situational option, where pooling a large amount of damage at once might save your, or someone else's, life.

It also does more than simply patch up loopholes that GH had, since the new system gives virtually no penalty when chain-firing weapons (GH had a 0.5 second reset timer), and instead focuses on limiting its alpha potential, this allows us a fresh look at weapons that were competitive purely through their ability to alpha, but are otherwise underpowered on their own or in chain-fire. (standard/er lasers for example)

[Spleenslitta]

They are in the testing stage with ED. It might work yet. The truly bad news is that even if they perfectly balance ED by having perfect energy limits and regen ED will not encourage mixed builds.

ED will not bring any....excitement. It's so plain and dull. No matter how perfect they run the numbers it's just such a boring system.
There are heaps of ideas made by players in this feedback forum but if Paul and Russ do not concider any of our ideas ED will stay boring.

ED is just like getting a new mech pack. Excitement for just a few minutes and then...boredom because it's just more of the same.
Look at LordNothings idea of having an the regular heat bar but also a Power bar(energy weapons), Guidance Computer (Missile) bar and recoil (ballistics)bar.
That is fresh and new. Might be hard to keep an eye on all the bars if you got weapons in all categories but at least it's not boring.

Me and a guy named L3mming2 took care of the problem with mech variants that only have 1 weapon hardpoint type so it has tremendous potential.
We would be saved from boredom no matter what with that kind of a system.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I find it interesting that the build that seems most affected by energy draw is a build that existed because we were avoiding ghost heat.

I also find it interesting that people say alpha striking is a last ditch move in TT, but the old laser vomit TImber Wolf would actually be heat neutral in TT.

But none of that has anything to do with this system.

This system just seems to be adding another layer to handle a problem that heat should be able to address. Somewhere between a range reduction, a reduction in clan DHS capacity, IS losing many heat gen quirks, and the arrival of the Kodiak laser vomit began to slip from favor. I don't think we need this system to accomplish the goals set forth.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Rouken Vordermark, on 22 August 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

I find it interesting that the build that seems most affected by energy draw is a build that existed because we were avoiding ghost heat.

I also find it interesting that people say alpha striking is a last ditch move in TT, but the old laser vomit TImber Wolf would actually be heat neutral in TT.

But none of that has anything to do with this system.

This system just seems to be adding another layer to handle a problem that heat should be able to address. Somewhere between a range reduction, a reduction in clan DHS capacity, IS losing many heat gen quirks, and the arrival of the Kodiak laser vomit began to slip from favor. I don't think we need this system to accomplish the goals set forth.

You can't use TT as a measurement of balance, simply because TT isn't balanced in the first place. TT didn't place any drawbacks to clan tech over IS, TT didn't balance advanced tech to old tech, TT was so far up its a** with convoluted rules and is so inherently unbalanced that the Battle Value system was introduced to give a number to every single existing thing so that two players would have to very carefully build their forces so that it doesn't exceed the limit, and simultaneously making sure that they are still viable.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Gentleman Reaper, on 22 August 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

You can't use TT as a measurement of balance

I dont. Yet here we are, testing a nerf for a playstyle that fits well with many other styles in probably the most diverse meta this game has had.

[davoodoo]

Gentleman Reaper, on 22 August 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

You can't use TT as a measurement of balance, simply because TT isn't balanced in the first place. TT didn't place any drawbacks to clan tech over IS, TT didn't balance advanced tech to old tech, TT was so far up its a** with convoluted rules and is so inherently unbalanced that the Battle Value system was introduced to give a number to every single existing thing so that two players would have to very carefully build their forces so that it doesn't exceed the limit, and simultaneously making sure that they are still viable.

Actually tt got measurements to balance clan tech and is tech... They also balanced futuretech...
What do you think bv was for??

Clantech would be outnumbered or outweight...

BV is no different than points in warhammer...
You can bring your op space marines, or you can bring shitton more guardsmen and tanks and bury them under fire...
Its a ******* standard mechanic of tabletop wargames...

Also you forgot to mention tonnage, lance consisting of only atlases will beat lance consisting of only ravens... But bv is bandaid...

Edited by davoodoo, 23 August 2016 - 12:54 AM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Sorry. Can't buy that using another, more complicated system, to balance a game, using the same variable (heat), is any better than the simpler system we already had, even if that simpler system isn't much to write home about.

Was TT more or less balanced? Dunno. Didn't play enough in the 80's, and haven't since then at all, so I'll just stay out of that. EXCEPT...

TT didn't have that intrinsic heat cap, above and beyond the sum capacities of all the installed heat sinks, that MWO has. TT had a progressive scale of increasing difficulty for the pilot to continue to operate his/her mech as heat climbed beyond the capacity of the installed heat sinks. Both are flat missing from MWO, replaced by an intrinsic additional capacity (which is, seemingly counterintuitively, exactly equal among all mechs of all weight classes and tech bases without exception) and some additional heat penalty for what would have, in TT at least, flat destroyed your mech in the past.

Never mind that the hard point system allows for some ridiculous build antics that should never have been allowed in this game in the first place, which is most of the reason we even HAVE this problem with high alphas.

TL;DR- Heat is a cop-out for an alpha penalty, and one of the things that TT did better.

[Tarl Cabot]

^^

The MWO Heatscale, as noted in other threads, generally allows more than one alpha after another due to allowing the number and type of heatsinks to have too a drastic affect on it. Besides actual heat dispersion, should mechs gain some other benefit from equipping more heatsinks? As long as the benefit is much, much smaller than the current effect.

As for the heat penalty thresholds, the gunnery and movement penalties was a combination of the myomer bundles (the muscles of a mech) efficiency decreases as the heat increased affect of the heat on the mechwarrior, even while equipped with a cooling vest or suit.

With the use of the movement/agility penalty that the cXL sees with the lost of one side torso, PGI has shown that they the ability to have an effect in that way, and even before that with the loss of one leg and the additional penalties of being hit while legged.

Would the above prevent full alphas? No, but it would reduce repeat alphas, and likelihood most would slim down those alphas to prevent being caught having their pants dropped to their ankles, preventing them from moving very fast.

And the increased cooldown timers are needed, more so on the larger weapons, so that there would be a reason to carry than just long range weapons for most mechs. The others, like the ERLL ravens and cheetahs, will find themselves in serious world of hurt when weapons with shorter range/faster firing weapons show up.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 August 2016 - 10:09 PM.