9 replies to this topic

[Geist310]

NoN energy weapons now use as much or more energy than energy weapons.!!?

Basically the new system all depends on how much damage you can do
if you build a mech that can do more than 30 points of direct fire OR 37.5(ABOUT) area damage You will receive an extra heat penalty if just try to do TO MUCH DAMAGE at one point in time. So if your non energy weapons are using just as much energy as your energy weapons why be bothered with bringing the extra weight and ammo tonnage for non energy weapons?

So THIS EXAMPLE you have 6 ultra AC5s which do 6 points total of heat (1 point each) if you fire all 6. if you went to double tap them even thought THAT IS ITS NORMAL OPERATION YOU WILL NOW either not have the energy to fire theM( from a non energy weapon) or if you get the double tap you will do an extra 30 points of damage doing 6 heat ( normal operation) + (30 *0.5) = 21 points of heat( of magical over energy use ) so 6 heat for you first shot + 21 for the second shot 27 heat which could shut your mech down. leaving you open to to be killed. Because you used a weapons that normally do one point of heat when fired that do not even do the damage of 1970's weapon like a *GAU-8 and while you have a fusion reactor pushing giga wats of power but the energy drain from auto cannons (IE:NON ENERGY WEAPONS ) which will MAKE YOUR MECH OVER HEAT AND SHUT DOWN.

*( The GUA-8 run off of two 77hp electric motors and in about 1 second ( NOT 2, NOT 3 BUT 1 SECOND) can turn a 75 ton titanium armored modern RUSSIAN T90 tank (in real world ) in to swish chess (metaphor) but yes yellowish and full of wholes.) ( PS the hit rate for a Gau-8 is 80% in one second it can put down a little over 60 to 70 rounds.

[Twinkleblade]

I think there is a misconception here.
First of all here a list of laser technology in battletech. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser

Now its not why ballistics use as much energy as laser weapons, its more technology is so refined that energy weapons only need as much energy as a ballistic weapon. Its more like ballistics indeed only require energy similar to the GUA-8 you were talking about but laser weapons only require a small amount of starting energy themselves. Its because of superior focusing lenses and materials that the laser weapons is about as destructive as the ballistic weapon in question with so little energy.
Mind you in battletech lasers do damage by melting the targets armor and disrupting electronics system beyond repair. In order to do that only alittle bit of energy is actually needed.

Even in todays time creating a laser doesnt need much energy although we dont use lasers to melt/destroy things.

2nd while its true that each mech has a fusion reactor installed, they only run it with a fraction of its max potential only a small portion of its max energy output is needed to run the mech. Most of the output energy goes into moving the mech. Besides there is things like radiadion and a comfort limit of heat for the pilot, so only a fraction of the engines max energy potential is used. You know to keep the pilot alive.

And as a last note we are talking about huge stompy robots dont use real logic on that. Its for game balance reasons.

[UnKnownPlayer]

you still bring the non-energy weapons because they generate less heat themselves than lasers.
AC still hit a single point with all their damage at a single point in time.

They are only a disadvantage if you CHOOSE to alpha them in to someone all at once.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 23 August 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

I think there is a misconception here.
First of all here a list of laser technology in battletech. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser

and heres an engine technology in battletech
http://www.sarna.net...mbustion_Engine

"Its power output is less than a fusion engine of similar mass"
"Internal combustion engines cannot power energy weapons without power amplifiers, unlike fusion engines."

Yeah even gauss uses less energy than small laser.

Or **** heres handheld weapon technology in battletech.

http://battletech.rp...ndheld%20Weapon

"Because the weapon is self-contained, it will not generate heat, nor can it draw on the unit’s on-board ammunition supplies or take advantage of targeting computer and other electronic enhancements installed within the firing unit’s chassis."
"The total weight of a Handheld Weapon equals the weight of the weapon(s) placed in the handheld mount, plus the number of any standard (single) heat sinks required to fire the weapon(s) at full capacity and the weight of any ammunition required."
"Note that Handheld Weapons only require heat sinks for energy-based weapon(s); ballistic and missile weapons require no heat sinks to fire when placed in a Handheld Weapon mount."

No engine required to fire those...

Edited by davoodoo, 23 August 2016 - 02:37 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 23 August 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

and heres an engine technology in battletech
http://www.sarna.net...mbustion_Engine

"Its power output is less than a fusion engine of similar mass"
"Internal combustion engines cannot power energy weapons without power amplifiers, unlike fusion engines."

Yeah even gauss uses less energy than small laser.

Or **** heres handheld weapon technology in battletech.

http://battletech.rp...ndheld%20Weapon

"Because the weapon is self-contained, it will not generate heat, nor can it draw on the unit’s on-board ammunition supplies or take advantage of targeting computer and other electronic enhancements installed within the firing unit’s chassis."
"The total weight of a Handheld Weapon equals the weight of the weapon(s) placed in the handheld mount, plus the number of any standard (single) heat sinks required to fire the weapon(s) at full capacity and the weight of any ammunition required."
"Note that Handheld Weapons only require heat sinks for energy-based weapon(s); ballistic and missile weapons require no heat sinks to fire when placed in a Handheld Weapon mount."

No engine required to fire those...

I dont think you got my point

Quote

And as a last note we are talking about huge stompy robots dont use real logic on that. Its for game balance reasons.

We are talking about a video game here ballistics and energy weapons having similar power draw is a result of game balance and not real world logic.

I apologize I didnt make my post clear about that but I was in a rush when I wrote that.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 23 August 2016 - 02:44 PM.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 23 August 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

I dont think you got my point



We are talking about a video game here ballistics and energy weapons having similar power draw is a result of game balance and not real world logic.

I apologize I didnt make my post clear about that but I was in a rush when I wrote that.

Game itself is rather logical within its own universe, ofc you have nonexisting technology which sometimes seems really outdated(as in we already can achieve that) considering 1000 years of progress and vastly increased population compared to 21st century earth we live on but even that was explained by mention of lostech and constant war accross multiple star systems.
And what i mean by logical within its own universe?? mech doesnt just move because its a mech and it seems cool. Mech moves because its powered by hydrogen fusion reactor which poweres electrically conductive artificial muscles which carry armor weaponry and skeleton of the mech. Its slow and its clumsy(its not gundam is what im trying to say) because its the best this technology within this world can acheive.

But then we are talking about franchise which never needed this mechanic(despite better heatsinks and only half armor compared to mwo i would like to add).
So we cant even talk if this is truly balancing or just bandaid fix to broken mechanic...
Surely however its giving a middle finger to source material of the franchise mwo borrows its name from...

Edited by davoodoo, 23 August 2016 - 02:58 PM.

[Green Budgie]

As far as I can see with this system nobody will use ballistic weapons because they effectively use the same energy as laser weapons, so there will be no point in taking the weight penalty and the having to carry ammo penalty. There will be no point in having ballistic weapons in the game at all. The whole point about ballistic weapons is that energy consumed is in the ammo so there so there should be no energy consumption. The system is doomed to make mechwarrior just a laser game. Likewise, the large pulse laser is 2 tons heavier but doe 2 more damage than the large laser currently. You pay the price of more damage by having less range and more weight. Sorry but none of these changes make any sense at all.

[Solis Obscuri]

Trying to do anything by BT fluff is an exercise in giving yourself a headache. The fluff isn't even consistent with itself in many cases, let alone reflective of the game mechanics.

That said, I'm not sure this latest approach I the right way to go about balance. There needs to be more to the system than just more heat buildup, particularly when the only penalty for running hot is the eventual risk of shutdown or internals damage.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 23 August 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

Game itself is rather logical within its own universe, ofc you have nonexisting technology which sometimes seems really outdated(as in we already can achieve that) considering 1000 years of progress and vastly increased population compared to 21st century earth we live on but even that was explained by mention of lostech and constant war accross multiple star systems.
And what i mean by logical within its own universe?? mech doesnt just move because its a mech and it seems cool. Mech moves because its powered by hydrogen fusion reactor which poweres electrically conductive artificial muscles which carry armor weaponry and skeleton of the mech. Its slow and its clumsy(its not gundam is what im trying to say) because its the best this technology within this world can acheive.

But then we are talking about franchise which never needed this mechanic(despite better heatsinks and only half armor compared to mwo i would like to add).
So we cant even talk if this is truly balancing or just bandaid fix to broken mechanic...
Surely however its giving a middle finger to source material of the franchise mwo borrows its name from...

You do realize how op ballistics would be without ED compared to energy boats? Besides most normal builds with ballistics barely being affected think about the quad cUAC/10 Kodiak. Please tell me 80 damage to your face in 0.5 without heat penalty are a good thing. ED on ballistics while not lorefriendly or logical is a necessary system to balance the game. Even ghost heat was completly illogical and not a single refence in lore, ED at least makes it more easy to understand gameplay wise.


I was poking alittle fun at the OP but you seem to take this far too serioulsy or are trolling.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 23 August 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

You do realize how op ballistics would be without ED compared to energy boats? Besides most normal builds with ballistics barely being affected think about the quad cUAC/10 Kodiak. Please tell me 80 damage to your face in 0.5 without heat penalty are a good thing. ED on ballistics while not lorefriendly or logical is a necessary system to balance the game. Even ghost heat was completly illogical and not a single refence in lore, ED at least makes it more easy to understand gameplay wise.


I was poking alittle fun at the OP but you seem to take this far too serioulsy or are trolling.

About as much as they were in tt??
Where ppl would rather pack more energy and dhs than to bother with explosive ammo and heavy acs??

And no, its not just that ed on ballistics "isnt lore friendly", ed on energy is equally heretical along with ghost heat, uncrittable engine, gyro, sensors actuators and so on. Pinpoint accuracy is also heretical, especially while moving at top speed.
Damage, heat, cooldowns and other weapon stats arent lore friendly, its not that crits works differently than in tt, these are within artistic license of videogame company(look at linked ppc from mw4 or rail cannon, silly if you think these could be in tt), things mentioned above however deserve burning stake.

If ttk is too low then maybe add more armor instead of turning canonical designs into suicide mechs which shutdown as soon as they fire their weapons in the same way as in fluff.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 August 2016 - 03:36 PM.