33 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

Phase 2 of the PTS is proving that this system works and does achieve what it's supposed to.

it allows you still to do the big alpha's but you then become a sitting duck while your shut down to anyone with some trigger discipline.

[Greyhart]

davoodoo, on 24 August 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

At 1st day i mentioned that 30 dmg alpha limit wont be enough and ppl will ask for further nerfs...

Guess what happened?? pgi nerfs ppfld below 30 dmg and this quote happened...

Now im waiting for inevitable "can fire 1 weapon at a time", its coming...

I think you are reading things in that I am not suggesting.

At the moment there is one penalty for heat. That is if you go over 100% you shut down (a 5 second time out) or incur damage.

a gradient of penalties kicking in at a point in the heat would make alphaing more tactical. Even if the first penalties were purely cosmetic HUD going weird, alarms etc.

This would mean you do large alphas but with a penalty slightly less then complete shut down.

Currently the only way to stop or reduce large alphas is to make the heat go over 100%. That means you have to dump a ton of heat into the system somehow based on damage.

A scaling penalty system of heat would allow for better control by the players and the Devs. You want to shot all your lasers at once fine. But you'll have a few seconds without a HUD and you'll lose some speed until heat is dissipated.

[Karl Streiger]

Cathy, on 24 August 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

Phase 2 of the PTS is proving that this system works and does achieve what it's supposed to.

it allows you still to do the big alpha's but you then become a sitting duck while your shut down to anyone with some trigger discipline.

only in 1 vs 1.... i think the reduced danger to get cored in one volley will increase the manouvers on the live server and in 12 vs 12 games for the first month (this is a great time to play MWO)
But soon units will realize that the decrease in individual firepower isn't an issue when fire concentration is trained to perfection.
After that MWO combat might stagnate even more - and then you don't have a Mech that might lead the charge and blast a hole into the enemy front line using one or two 80dmg alpha strikes.

PTS might need a session were combat is 12 vs 12.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 August 2016 - 01:29 AM.

[davoodoo]

Greyhart, on 25 August 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

I think you are reading things in that I am not suggesting.

Its rather hard to strawman saying that ed isnt harsh enough...

Cathy, on 24 August 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

Phase 2 of the PTS is proving that this system works and does achieve what it's supposed to.

it allows you still to do the big alpha's but you then become a sitting duck while your shut down to anyone with some trigger discipline.

Its certainly working, goal was to limit alphas to 30 dmg, now alphas for ppc were needed to be reduced to 20 dmg...Gauss alphas to 15 dmg, even ac5 24 dmg. When turned into ghost it obvously starts to work...

Tell me how exactly is that working when this is in the patch notes
"Heat and Cooldown values for AC/5 weaponry have been adjusted to better fit within the context of the new Energy Draw system, as these weapons had very few drawbacks under the new system."
Yea ed doesnt affect ac5 so hard nerf needed...

Totally guys, communism is working, you just need to take away peoples freedom and brainwash them into obedience...

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 03:29 AM.

[Greyhart]

davoodoo, on 25 August 2016 - 03:14 AM, said:

Its rather hard to strawman saying that ed isnt harsh enough...

My point wasn't that the ED wasn't harsh enough.

The point was that the ED or GH has to be too harsh because there is no penalty less than shut down. Ergo to make them effective the system has to dump a lot of heat into the heat system

if the penalties increased gradually with heat you could happily allow someone to Alpha more than once with big damage and not shut down. But say they then have a slower speed and cross hair shake or the HUD goes weird.

Basically going to the pilot you can alpha X number of times without shutting down but you will be slower and have other problems than if you controlled your fire. Obviously this would situational. so an atlas trying to break the front lines will be happy to take the penalties but a locust might be very careful to avoid speed reductions and a sniper might want to avoid anything that messes with aim like loss of HUD or cross hair shake.

http://mwomercs.com/...he-right-place/

hopefully that explains it.

[davoodoo]

Which still says that even 30 dmg alphas are too much and we should give them higher penatly...

And if you want heat scale then you need to make heat neutral builds possible.

Now its impossible to make even 27 dmg worth of slas heat neutral
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a85348c5eba08ff
My best attempt...

Absolute shittiest dmg but highest heat efficiency energy weapon in the game cant fire without overheating your mech(despite superior 3050 tech i need to add)

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[Greyhart]

davoodoo, on 25 August 2016 - 04:10 AM, said:

Which still says that even 30 dmg alphas are too much and we should give them higher penatly...

And if you want heat scale then you need to make heat neutral builds possible.

Now its impossible to make even 27 dmg worth of slas heat neutral
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a85348c5eba08ff
My best attempt...

Absolute shittiest dmg but highest heat efficiency energy weapon in the game cant fire without overheating your mech(despite superior 3050 tech i need to add)

Hold on are you saying the current heat system is too strict? I don't think I made mention of restricting damage, only that a penalty would apply whilst your mech was hot. it would be the pilots decision whether the penalty was worth the damage.

Adjusting heat sinks and other things to do with heat could well follow. at the moment they need you to retain as much heat between 0-99% because of the binary nature of the penalty. You could also have different heat penalties between Clan and IS mechs or even adjust them on a mech by mech basis as a way of balancing.

[davoodoo]

Greyhart, on 25 August 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

Hold on are you saying the current heat system is too strict? I don't think I made mention of restricting damage, only that a penalty would apply whilst your mech was hot. it would be the pilots decision whether the penalty was worth the damage.

Adjusting heat sinks and other things to do with heat could well follow. at the moment they need you to retain as much heat between 0-99% because of the binary nature of the penalty. You could also have different heat penalties between Clan and IS mechs or even adjust them on a mech by mech basis as a way of balancing.

Repeating your argument over and over doesnt make it better.

It boils down to the fact that despite 30 dmg limit you still want additional penatly in form of heat scale effects...

There is 1 penatly already and you want to introduce 2nd one... and that isnt even accurate...
To limit alphas effectiveness there is already hardpoints(1) double armor(2), nerfed heat sinks(3), stats changes(c erppc example, 4), ghost heat(5), ed(6) and now you want to add heat scale penatlies(7), im waiting for inevitable step on this road which will be "1 weapon at a time(n)".
And everything is caused by only 1 change from tt, perfect accuracy which buffed alphas over the roof.

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 04:55 AM.

[Boldar]

Why is there no movement penalty for hot Mechs like in the tabletop?

Work that part into the game (already there for destroyed clan XL engines) and reduce the heat penalties a bit.
Then you can still alpha real high, but you have more problems hiding and/or twisting as your Mech reacts sluggish.

[Lostdragon]

Karl Streiger, on 24 August 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

It is no 10sec cooldown. As you might have seen I just reduced the damage accordingly to the reloads
If you might look at MWLL there it seems to be similar.

In other words.
If I have a Medium Laser - it can fire every 2seconds with a quick pulse of 0.3sec - dealing 1.15dmg. Now I think (my personal opinion that weapons relying on DPS should outDPS every weapon that is relying on alpha)
So this Medium Laser - can now fire every 1.75sec for 1.15dmg (~0.6DPS)
While the Pulse Laser becomes a weapon that fires every 0.75sec for 0.8dmg (~1DPS)

ammunition supported weapons should fire faster
The AC5 might fire in burst mode 3 shots with each 0.4dmg every 1.2seconds (~1 DPS)

while PPC as writen above fires only every 7.5sec for only 7.5dmg (1DPS)

it is important that you support the roles you described above. You should need direct firing DPS as well as sniper and LRM mechs - plus some extra punch at short range.
You don't create such behaviour by tweaking random numbers but by working out a concept and don't give a damn about "true TT values" you might start at tt but you have to derivate each and every value


the current damage is just for standard - not double armor

Thanks for clarification, that makes a lot more sense. I am amazed at how easily PGI deviates from TT on some things and makes no effort to include lore in the game or present a story based on the rich BT universe but clings maniacally to some TT rules like no heat Gauss Rifles. It would he a lot easier to balance the game with existing values instead of trying to tack on GH and ED, all that development time from designers and programmers could have gone in to new features.

[Greyhart]

davoodoo, on 25 August 2016 - 04:43 AM, said:

It boils down to the fact that despite 30 dmg limit you still want additional penatly in form of heat scale effects...

No I am saying you can get rid of the 30 damage limit and replace it with penalties of less than shut down.

Don't seek to limit the alpha don't add heat for anything other than the usual heat a weapon has. But if you run hotter than say 50% you get some sort of penalty like HUD problems or movement penalty etc. Something that make you less effective, but does stop you entirely.

Then the pilot can make the decision of whether the penalty is worth the damage.

The place they want to be is that Alphaing is viable maybe once or twice but there would be no issue with chain fire or more face time.

The current heat system means you alpha till 99% then cool slightly so you can chain fire keeping heat at 99% (or retreat to cool). the fact that there is no penalty from 0-99 is the problem.

[davoodoo]

Boldar, on 25 August 2016 - 04:51 AM, said:

Why is there no movement penalty for hot Mechs like in the tabletop?

Work that part into the game (already there for destroyed clan XL engines) and reduce the heat penalties a bit.
Then you can still alpha real high, but you have more problems hiding and/or twisting as your Mech reacts sluggish.

Because heat sinks are nerfed to the point where firing few lasers would cause your ammo to explode...despite such thing being heat neutral in tt...

Also side torso being destroyed in tt counted as amount of crits to engine equal to slots occupied(it required 3 to kill engine completely)
So clan xl losing side torso(2 crits) would take effectively +10 heat per turn rendering half of inbult dhs unusable and tbh i cant remember and couldnt find any other penatly for getting engine hit(though my tt rules memory might be little rusty at this point)

Greyhart, on 25 August 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

No I am saying you can get rid of the 30 damage limit and replace it with penalties of less than shut down.

And this is first time i hear something that explains it.

And it could work with ton of changes, but "problem" of alphas and problem of low ttk would persist.

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 05:19 AM.

[Greyhart]

davoodoo, on 25 August 2016 - 05:15 AM, said:

And this is first time i hear something that explains it.

And it could work with ton of changes, but "problem" of alphas and problem of low ttk would persist.

yes they would but then you work with the heat system to limit them. As others have said you might consider upping dissipation and reducing heat cap.

If you're suffering movement penalties and you're cross hair is shaking and the HUD is acting weird you're only likely to continue with alphas if you feel you have no other option (I don't think ED will change that either). The penalties add progressive pressure on the pilot to stop. the current system has no pressure until the 99% mark.

[Steve Pryde]

Lostdragon, on 24 August 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

10 second cooldowns for everything won't be fun for a real time shooter game. Go into a match with a light and only fore your weapons every 10 seconds and see how that feels.

Did you read his post? I think not. Lower cd for a weapon system = lower dmg (and heat). A ppc do 10 dmg in table top per round (10 sec.), in MWO u could do a 5 sec. cd with 5 dmg and 5 heat, it's that simple. U can do this to all other weapons and just adjust the dmg and heat numbers.

For PGI it's just editing numbers in a xml file, even an ape could do that in a day.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 25 August 2016 - 06:16 AM.