13 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Anyone who knows me knows I've been advocating for Flamers to get properly reengineered and fixed pretty much since I started playing the game. With Energy Draw, I think we have the perfect opportunity to make this happen. We can compare the current functionality of Flamers to an Energy Draw based Flamer and quickly see the vast improvements this change would have.

Flamers as they function on live.

Spoiler

Flamers as they function on live have a very convoluted set of mechanics that handles even more clumsily than any other weapon. While we get a little over 4 seconds (4.25)of "free fire" you then have to wait however long you fired, plus 4.25 seconds before your Flamers fire time cools down and "resets". Thusly, no matter how much heat damage you did, your opponent still has nearly 9 seconds to cool down and pummel you before you can do any more heat damage. However, the heat damage inflicted is almost always crippling and requires a long period to effectively cool off. In addition, with the Flamers starting at a massive 4.5 Heat DPS and exponentially growing from there, combined with the ability to fire as many together as you want with the "free fire" window, you can still bring any opponent (or even opponents) that you want to maximum heat in mere moments (the biggest reason for the layers of convoluted mechanics to prevent stunlocking as per the Flamergeddon). So, lets take a look at the numbers:

Damage: .1 DPS (basically nothing, very unlike the lore of the weapon)

Heat Damage: 4.5 + exponential scaling. In conjunction with the "free fire" window, and a mere handful of flamers, it can overcome any number of heatsinks (the biggest reason for the convoluted mechanics after the "Flamergeddon" exploit took its toll).

Heat Generation: Nothing for 4.25 seconds, no matter how many you use, but rapidly building heat outside this window. Regardless, the premise is to use Flamers during this "magic free fire window".

Cooldown: 4.25 seconds before it starts to even begin to cooldown + however long you fired the weapon for within the "free fire" window. Maximum cooldown of 8.5 seconds. Firing even a split second too early restarts the whole process.

This "magic window" in conjunction with the convoluted cooldown mechanics really put this weapon into an awkward niche position, at best, and unusable, at worst. The weapon is in dire need of reengineering and Energy Draw is just the system to allow that to happen.

Flamers as they could function with Energy Draw.

Spoiler

Energy Draw gives a perfect opportunity to reengineer the Flamer and bring it into the Energy Draw fold. This system would allow it to function fluidly with every other weapon system in the game, not have any convoluted mechanics or extra UI elements, and not have any exploitable circumstances. Even its functionality would be much more manageable in the grand scheme of things. Here are some theoretical stats that would put the Flamer in a solid, but not overpowered, position.

Damage: 1.0 DPS - Modest, but not overbearing, exactly like the lore version of the weapon system.

Heat Damage: 2.0 Heat DPS - Again, modest, but consistent and much more manageable even if the weapons are stacked in a sizable group.

Heat Generation: 1.0 HPS - Not a cool weapon by any stretch of the imagination, but still at least putting more heat on target then for the shooter.

Energy Draw: 2.0 EDPS - Sizable energy draw that makes it so that extended firing of the weapon system can quickly become more punishing for the shooter than the target, which curbs abuse.

Cooldown: None, because it's not needed. Fire too long and the Energy Draw penalties make the weapon system more punishing for the shooter than the target.

Here we'd now have a weapon that functions fluidly along with every other weapon in the game. It's not subject to abuse or exploits (like what led to Flamergeddon), and the heat damage is far more manageable even if it can be applied more often (max 15 heat per burst without penalties vs. an unlimited max heat per burst under the current live system).

These changes create a much more balanced weapon right out of the gate. Lets take a look at a few examples:

Flamer case study examples.

Spoiler

First, we'll look at a single Flamer to establish a baseline of what to expect as we move forward. While few mechs use a single flamer in MWO (many do, stock) it does quickly establish the stark differences in potential and management in the weapons.

One Flamer

Spoiler

1 Flamer Live:
Fire Time: 4 seconds with no penalties
Damage Done: .4 of a Point
Heat Damage Done: minimum 18 points + exponential gains
Heat DPS: 4.5+
Heat Generated: 0
Cooldown: 8.25 seconds to next Free Fire window

1 Flamer Energy Draw:
Fire Time: 4 seconds to compare to live vs. (15 seconds before penalties)
Damage Done: 4 Points (15 Points before penalties)
Heat Damage Done: 8 points (30 Points before penalties)
Heat DPS: 2.0 Flat
Heat Generated: 4 Points (15 Points before penalties)
Cooldown: None, but upwards of 2 seconds possible wait for energy to recharge to fire without penalties.

Already the Flamer is doing more consistent and manageable effects, but it certainly isn't free to shoot. In fact, while 1 Flamer on live cannot be mitigated by heat sinks of any feasible build on live, the Energy Draw Flamer can, in fact, be mitigated by the 10 true-double heat sinks located in most mechs.

While some things are consistent (like the cooldowns mentioned) Lets take a look at the more likely groups of Flamers that would be fired to obtain more desirable Crowd Control effects: 2, 4, and 6 Flamers:

Two Flamers

Spoiler

2 Flamers Live:
Fire Time: 4 seconds with no penalties.
Damage Done: .8 Damage
Heat Damage Done: Minimum 36 + exponential gains
Heat DPS: 9+
Heat Generated: 0
Cooldown: Same 8.25 second cooldown to next free fire window.

2 Flamers Energy Draw:
Fire Time: 4 seconds vs. (7.5 seconds without penalties)
Damage Done: 8 Damage (15 without penalties)
Heat Damage Done: 16 points (30 without penalties)
Heat DPS: 4.0
Heat Generated: 8 Points (15 without penalties)
Cooldown: None, but upwards of 2 seconds to wait for energy draw, and even more to ensure that heat buildup is kept in check.

Four Flamers

Spoiler

4 Flamers Live:
Fire Time: 4 seconds with no penalties.
Damage Done: 1.6 Damage
Heat Damage Done: Minimum 72 + exponential gains
Heat DPS: 18+
Heat Generated: 0
Cooldown: Same 8.25 second cooldown to next free fire window.

4 Flamers Energy Draw:
Fire Time: 4 seconds vs. (3.75 seconds without penalties)
Damage Done: 16 Damage (15 without penalties)
Heat Damage Done: 32 points (30 without penalties)
Heat DPS: 8.0
Heat Generated: 18 Points because of 2 point overdraw penalty (15 without penalties)
Cooldown: None, but even compared to live we're already reaching reasonable heat burst limits because of penalties incurred for extended bursts. Giving the mech time to cool and/or recharge between bursts will become a necessity.

Six Flamers

Spoiler

6 Flamers Live:
Fire Time: 4 seconds with no penalties.
Damage Done: 2.4 Damage
Heat Damage Done: Minimum 108 + exponential gains
Heat DPS: 27+
Heat Generated: 0
Cooldown: Same 8.25 second cooldown to next free fire window.

6 Flamers Energy Draw:
Fire Time: 4 seconds vs. (2.5 seconds without penalties)
Damage Done: 24 Damage (15 without penalties)
Heat Damage Done: 48 points (30 without penalties)
Heat DPS: 12.0
Heat Generated: 42 Points because of 18 point overdraw penalty (15 without penalties)
Cooldown: None, but now -compared to live- we've already reached a point where Flamer heat burst must be short and controlled because of penalties incurred for extended bursts. Giving the mech time to cool and/or recharge between bursts will become an extreme necessity.

As we look at arrays and groups of Flamers in the Live vs. Energy Draw system, a larger array of Flamers will let a mech on live inflict serious heat damage (even across multiple mechs) in controlled bursts ALL FOR FREE, while at the same token the limits on Energy Draw Flamers are consistent and controlled -even in larger quantities- unless the shooter inflicts serious overdraw penalties upon themselves. Even if a Flamer wielding mech wishes to inflict overdraw penalties upon themselves, the heat damage inflicted is nothing compared to the absurd numbers on live; and yet the controlled and judicial usage allows us a weapon that can be used freely and fluidly within the Energy Draw system and without any extra or convoluted mechanics layered upon the weapon.

In conclusion, I hope this presents a compelling enough breakdown of information to bring the Flamer into the Energy Draw fold and allow it to function fluidly and smoothly within the rest of the game mechanics. As is clearly shown an Energy Draw Flamer would prevent the abusive exploits that created the "Flamergeddon", but also remove the need for extra UI elements or convoluted mechanics that are not explained to the average player anywhere in the current game. On top of it, in order to not incur penalties you essentially garner the same results -no matter how many flamers you use- within the energy draw system. The only difference is how fast you get there and how difficult it is to control.

I sincerely hope that PGI takes this into consideration and changes their stance of not altering the Flamer during the Energy Draw implementation. Even if my numbers aren't "perfect" or "ideal" to everyone (which are merely theoretical guidelines, anyway), I would hope we can agree that this premise is a far cry better than what we currently have on live servers.

Edited by Sereglach, 18 September 2016 - 06:32 AM.

[Sereglach]

As an addendum, if you dislike the premise or think it needs tweaking, please explain your stance after voting in the poll, thanks.

EDIT: After all, this is for PTS purposes; and the only thing that will help the premises of PTS and Energy Draw is feedback. Thusly, all constructive feedback is appreciated.

Edited by Sereglach, 24 August 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[Wibbledtodeath]

Actually really great suggestions. Its a bit early though- needs to come after Power Draw is in place in a more solid form.
I am also not sure about exact numbers- so I voted "maybe". However, at the very least the basic premise is a very good one- I enjoy using flamers, but the "ghost heat" type issues with firing windows etc makes them unpredictable. Yours is an elegant solution.

[Tiantara]

- No... Not until big gun was established by power and ED pool.

[Sader325]

No. Flamers are great on live.

[Monkey Lover]

Bring them in and allow them to go over 100% heat on the other mech.

[Sereglach]

Wibbledtodeath, on 25 August 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

Actually really great suggestions. Its a bit early though- needs to come after Power Draw is in place in a more solid form.
I am also not sure about exact numbers- so I voted "maybe". However, at the very least the basic premise is a very good one- I enjoy using flamers, but the "ghost heat" type issues with firing windows etc makes them unpredictable. Yours is an elegant solution.

I'm glad you like it. I'm perfectly fine if it comes towards the end of the Energy Draw PTS, or even shortly after it turns live. However, it really should be done.

Tiantara, on 25 August 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

- No... Not until big gun was established by power and ED pool.

Care to elaborate? That remark really doesn't mean anything. What stipulations do you think it needs before the Flamer would be fixed? What solutions would you propose?

Sader325, on 25 August 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

No. Flamers are great on live.

Great on live? Really? How so? They have convoluted and awkwardly implemented mechanics that are even less explained to the average player than Ghost Heat (at least in the Mech Lab you'll get a warning for equipping too many weapons that violate the Ghost Heat rules). Also, they have "magical free fire windows" that make zero sense in the grand scheme of things. The suggested fix -through bringing Flamers into Energy Draw- actually fixes all of the weapon's flaws from its current implementation and brings it into a much more controllable situation.

Please refine and give a bit more info on your logic. If you think they're great on live I'd love to know why.

Monkey Lover, on 25 August 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Bring them in and allow them to go over 100% heat on the other mech.

As much as I love the prospect of going over 100% heat (I overheated and overloaded a large number of mechs with my beloved Firestarter back in my TT RPG days) I'm not sure PGI could ever do it reasonably. The biggest concern is stun-locking through a pack of Flamer Mechs. As soon as you implement a weapon that could fully stun-lock and kill (even if other weapons were needed) then it'd cause no ends of problems for game balance.

Granted, if your teammates are there to save you, it isn't as much of a concern. Otherwise, any caught straggler or loner towards the end of the match could have a huge problem on their hands.

On the other hand . . . with the numbers I have set up you're never inflicting a massive amount of heat, so the levels of heat damage are far more controlled and controllable. Maybe, one day, we could possibly get Flamer reactor overloads on careless players? However, we'd need Flamers brought into Energy Draw, first, and fixed, before we could even see if it was possible. Regardless, I'm not personally against the concept, even if I don't think it'll happen.

Edited by Sereglach, 25 August 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[Sereglach]

Another PTS iteration up; and another PTS iteration where this hasn't happened. I'm a bit disappointed. However, that disappointment gets exacerbated by the fact that PGI is letting the perfect opportunity to really knuckle down on weapon balance across the board.

MG's, LRM's, and LBX's just aren't getting the attention they deserve for a full weapon systems balance pass (because lets face it, ED itself is a weapon systems balance pass). There's even been the great idea of making Jump Jets good again and tying JJ use to Energy Draw in order to limit poptart/jump-sniping potential.

Regardless, my previous comments and assessment of Flamers still stands. This is the perfect opportunity to fix Flamers and give them the proper reengineering they deserve. PGI just needs to reach out and do it, just like they need to do for a lot of other weapon systems in this PTS. It's the perfect opportunity to bring some serious weapon balance to MWO.

[Tank Boy Ken]

Your suggestion is good except for one point: your Energy per second use on the Flamers is too low. Keep in mind that it regenerates at 20 / second. Causing even just 4 HPS on any enemy mech will more than kill any way to dissipate heat on most builds.

So as long as you stay below 20 E/s you won't incur any penalty (and one would have to use up the 30 point buffer first).

My stat suggestion:
Dmg done: 1 dmg /sec
Heat done: 0.5 heat applied to enemy mech / sec
Heat: 0.2 heat per second (on the mech using flamers)
Energy useage: 6 E per second

Heat done is low enough that you can seriously hinder any enemy Mechs ability to dissipate heat. Thus Firing their own weapons will be less safe. But at least gives them a chance to cool down. AllowingFlamers to easily destroy the ability of a Mech to dissipate heat = stunlock. And 2 HPS per Flamer is making that easily possible.

Generating 0.2 heat is low enough that they will be viable on lighter Mechs, but will add up.

The high energy useage will allow 1-3 Flamers to be used without penalty and without limit.

• 1 Flamer = Energy will still regenerate at 14 points / sec. Thus almost refilling the bar in 2 seconds. Which is more than enough for light mechs
  
• 2 Flamers = Energy regenerates at 8 points / sec. Refill time is nearly 4 seconds. Which is still enough for a light using 6 Medium Laser/ ER Smalls.
  
• 3 Flamers = Energy regeneration is down to 2 points / sec. Refilling your energy pool takes 15 seconds. You basically need to stop using Flamers to refill your bar. But refilling your Bar will then only take 1.5 seconds. This is still a non-limitation for light Mechs
  
• 4 Flamers = Energy doesn't regenerate. Your Mech is constantly moving towards the -120? point limit of Energy, At which your Mech explodes, though it will take 30 seconds to reach it. You will generate 4 penalty heat per second (once the initial pool is drained), Which takes 7 seconds. So it still allows a lot of heat to be generated on the target.
  
• 5 Flamers = Energy pool drained after a short amount of time(2 seconds). Significant heat penalty thereafter (12 per second).

Sidenote: applying 2 heat per second to a Mech with 17 DHS (Elited) will reduce it to 1.51 heat dissipation per second.

[Sereglach]

Tank Boy Ken, on 02 September 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

*snip*

Very good suggestion. Personally, I was working off the same premise as heat dissipation, where no dissipation occurs while weapons are firing/adding heat (look at lasers for a great example, heat is added over the burn duration, then it begins to dissipate). Thusly, while Flamers are firing no Energy Draw regeneration occurs, you're strictly depleting your energy reserves and adding heat.

However, IF energy draw continues to regenerate while things are still drawing energy, then I can certainly see your suggestion as valid point and a great move. Numbers may require tuning, though, but that's what we have this great opportunity of a PTS for.

Thank you for the solid input and feedback.

Edited by Sereglach, 02 September 2016 - 06:34 AM.

[Sereglach]

Two more PTS iterations pass and this hasn't even been brought to the table as a possibility of testing. That's pretty disappointing considering how much other weapon balancing has been going on.

While the initial post still applies, I also concur with Ken's assessment and would probably set the ED of Flamers to 5.0/sec IF Energy would still be regenerating while Flamers are firing. If ED regen pauses while Flamers are firing, then I think my original numbers would be fine.

I hope PGI is willing to at least give this a test before ED makes it to live.

[cazidin]

No. It took PGI 2 years to fix Flamers. I don't want PGI to touch, and probably break, Flamers.

[Sereglach]

cazidin, on 17 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

No. It took PGI 2 years to fix Flamers. I don't want PGI to touch, and probably break, Flamers.

Fix Flamers? What they did on live isn't a fix, not by a longshot.

What they did do was apply some numbers tuning to an already broken weapon. Then, when the issues with the weapon became horrifically apparent in the "Flamergeddon" (a huge "I told you so" from me to PGI happened with that patch), PGI had to move to layer convoluted mechanics on an already broken weapon in order to prevent the inherent flaws and exploits from being a severe issue. Basically, they made the weapon horrifically broken for a scant few hours and then hotfixed it into oblivion.

The usability of the weapon is niche at best, it has horrible and nonsensical "magic free fire windows", they took away all of its physical damage, and to top it all off the current convoluted mechanics of the weapon are not explained to the typical player anywhere in the game.

That's not a fix; and Flamers are in an abysmal state right now on live.

EDIT: As an addendum, if PGI did what I'm recommending, how would that break Flamers?

Edited by Sereglach, 17 September 2016 - 04:25 PM.

[Sereglach]

Poll Removed . . . if people want to explain their standing, then they can explain their standing. Obviously putting up a poll with "Please Explain" next to the answers is just too hard for some people to comprehend.

Now, if people have constructive opinions to explain and debates to be had, I'd happily take up that conversation.

EDIT: Although worth noting at the time the poll was removed the large majority was either all for it or at least willing to try, test, and adjust as necessary. Thusly, it still stands that there's support for PGI to at least give it a shot.

Edited by Sereglach, 18 September 2016 - 06:35 AM.