38 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

in this Topic i will be Compiling the Works and Sciance of several Individuals,
all have dont tests with LRMs and each have their Own Views and Thoughts on them,
however i will be using their Science to advocate for Spread Normalization,
Thank you,

VirtualRiot, on 09 September 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

Question:
Which set of LRMs is the most effective? Four LRM 5, 2 LRM 10, 1 LRM 20.
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Hypothesis:
Since all sets of LRMs launch 20 missiles, they should be similarly effective by salvo size (ex. 1 salvo of 4 LRM 5 should be as effective as 1 salvo of 1 LRM 20). They will be dis-similar in time to kill as LRM 5 has shorter cooldown.
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Experiment:
Tested the various combinations on a GRF-2N on Frozen city against the same target @210m. All tests were preformed with Artemis IV FCS. All variables were equal apart from the LRMs.
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Results:
4x LRM 5: Target destroyed in 14 seconds using 5 volleys.
2x LRM 10: Target destroyed in 20 seconds using 6 volleys
1x LRM 20: Target destroyed in 49 seconds using 11 volleys.
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Conclusion:
4x LRM 5 displayed ~350% faster kill time vs 1x LRM 20 and 143% faster kill time vs 2x LRM 10.
4x LRM 5 used 2.2 times less ammo to kill that target vs 1x LRM 20 and 1.2 times vs 2x LRM 10.
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Final Thoughts:
LRM 10 and 20 spread should be reduced to have a similar salvo kill time versus LRM 5.

VirtualRiot on (Lrm !science!)

Sader325, on 12 April 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

The only LRMs worth using currently are LRM 5's both clan and inner sphere.

Why? Because your LRM 10, 15, and 20s still do the same effective damage as an LRM 5 simply because the spread of the LRM's is too damn high.

What other weapon gets punished this much for getting bigger? A clan UAC20 doesn't spread its bullets all over the place just because its an UAC20, every bullet from the uac20 follows the same exact path, varience comes from a moving target.

So I suggest a simple fix for all LRMs.

Clan LRMS:

Clan LRM 10, 15, and 20 will have the same spread as an LRM 5.

Nothing else will change, reduce the spread to 5's and you have now made LRM 20's just as viable as 5's.

Inner Sphere LRMs:

Innersphere LRM's will now fire in chains of 5's (think clan UAC)

IS LRM 20 will fire 4 groups of 5 with the same exact spread as an LRM 5. The rate of the chain fire can be adjusted, but for now lets say .1 seconds between groups.


There LRMs above 5s are now viable.

---

Navid A1, on 12 April 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

I agree with the OP.

I made a similar suggestion a month ago in this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5084012

Navid A1, on 17 March 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

How about this (quick mock up, there may be mistakes):





And this is the current spread values:

Sader325 on (How To Make Lrm's Not Terrible. Yea We're Buffing Lrms)

Navid A1, on 19 August 2016 - 05:44 AM, said:

I like most changes that was introduced in the energy draw system.

While its main focus is on direct fire alpha... it makes an already bad issue even worse.

LRM5s are the king of the indirect weapons in terms of weight, efficiency, dps, accuracy... pretty much everything.
A role that should have been carried out by LRM20s and LRM15s

Currently you can fire 3 LRM5s with no consequence... with energy draw you can fire 8 of them with no consequence.
Meanwhile You can only fire 2 LRM20s or LRM15s which are heavy, ammo wasting, have massive cooldowns and are highly inaccurate.

here is a comparison:
8x LRM 5s (at 16 tons)


2x LRM 20s (at 20 tons)



The solution:
- DO NOT ANNIHILATE LRM 5s
- Normalize spread across all launchers of all sizes (LRM10 levels) and introduce a new mechanic:
example:



I know it may sound harsh to some of you.. but please take a look at how LRM20 would be if it had LRM5 level spread:
8xLRM5s fired with LRM20 cooldown to simulate 2xLRM20 with small spread:


As you can see, even if you reduce LRM20 spread to LRM5 levels you get:
8xLRM5 at 16 tons and 8 crits killing an atlas in around 30 secs
2xLRM20 at 20 tons and 10 crits killing the same atlas in around 50 secs

Seems pretty fair to me.

What do you think?

Navid A1 on (Lrms And Energy Draw)

Bishop Steiner, on 16 March 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

Seriously. This is not about whether they are Trash Tier, or OP, no skills, or different skills, etc.

It's just basic common sense.

When dealing with BALANCE, 6x LRM5 should be equal to 2x LRM15 or 3x LRM10, and slightly inferior to, 2x LRM20.

But due to the cooldown and spread mechanics, if one does use LRMs, LRM5s, en masse, preferably 5-6, are the way to go. Be you in a Jenner IIC, a Mad Dog, or the Archer.

• IS LRM20 spread reduced to 6.2m (down from 7.0m). Cooldown of the weapon from 4.75s to 5.5s.
• IS LRM15 spread reduced to 5.2m (down from 5.7m). Cooldown of the weapon from 4.25s to 4.75s.
• IS LRM10 spread reduced to 4.2m (down from 4.3m). Cooldown of the weapon from 3.75s to 4.0s.
• Clan LRM20 spread reduced to 6.2m (down from 7.0m). Cooldown of the weapon from 5.0s to 6.5s.
• Clan LRM15 spread reduced to 5.2m (down from 5.7m). Cooldown of the weapon from 4.5s to 5.5s.
• Clan LRM10 spread reduced to 4.2m (down from 4.3m). Cooldown of the weapon from 4.0s to 4.5s.

Not sure offhand what the LRM5 base spread is. TBH. IS has a cooldown of 3.25 seconds, Clan, 3.5.

Heat? Supposedly one should run HOTTER using multiple 5s, but especially since Chainfire is a norm, it really doesn't seem to be much an issue, whereas I do know any mech running 2x LRM20, get toasty, rather fast. Part of that, I'm sure is the extra 2-4 tons one can save for DHS depending on build.

Anyhow, simple fact, 6x LRM5 whether Clan or IS, is resoundingly better than 2x LRM20, which is insane since you are comparing 12 tons (6 for clans) of weapons vs 20 (10 for Clan). And Artemis does little to matter.

Ideas?


LRMs. Add 100 m/s to base velocity.
Give ALL Launchers the same spread pattern (because mass, crits and slow cooldown is more than enough tax on the big launchers, already), Probably the LRM10 pattern, and a little tighter with Artemis.

Give LRMs another 100 m/s speed boost if they are homing on NARC'd or TAG'd enemies, and the hit pattern should be based on the Location the Mech is Tagged or NARC'd with the obvious changes for facing. (AKA if you are in front of a Mech that is TAG'd or NARC'd in the REAR RT, then the damage pattern should be focused around the FRONT RT as they take the shortest route to the designated area.)

Shorten Lock Time with LoS but make it more Pipper Dependant (I think it already has been tightened some that way, seems like I drop locks way easier now), increase them without LoS. Of course, NARC and TAG Would shorten the Lock again, but still be based on LoS/No LoS.

Then with LRMs being semi effective, we can stop worrying about stupid levels of quirks to achieve effectiveness, and maybe give it mild cooldown/heat gen quirks, and call it a day.

Or even Missile Lock speed/duration quirks.


*EDIT*
Found this fascinating thread on Mechspecs, too



https://www.mechspec...test-lrms.8298/

To summarize my current thoughts after 18 pages of discussion:
(mind you there are changes I would love to make, but realistically know that they won't)

1) Normalize All Launchers to LRM10 Spread, including the LRM5
2) Bring the Cooldown Closer together, but not identical.
3) Perhaps give smaller racks slightly shorter lock times
4) With Artemis, add 100 m/s velocity and tighten all size Launcher Spread to LRM5 level
5) Indirect fire without aid of NARC or TAG all Launchers use LRM15 or 20 spread to reflect general inaccuracy of unaided indirect fire
6) LoS LRM Launch in flatter trajectory, Indirect Fire in Rainbow Trajectory, and lose any Artemis Bonus unless target is actively TAG'd or NARC'd.

Would enhance the Effectiveness of LRMs in general, while punishing BADs in sloppy LRMAssaults who expect people to hold locks for them, and also enhance usefulness of Legit Spotters, to some degree.

Bishop Steiner on (Thank You ACR: For Highlighting The Inherent Flaws In The Lrm System)


here are the Current Spreads and Cooldowns,
Type,....Spread,...Cooldown,.....(Clan)
LRM5,....3.0m........3.25sec,....(3.50sec)
LRM10,..4.2m........4.00sec,....(4.50sec)
LRM15,..5.2m........4.75sec,....(5.50sec)
LRM20,..6.2m........5.50sec,....(6.50sec)

the common Consensuses is normalize all Spread to 3m-4m,
and keep the cooldown, this way all LRMs are balanced to each other,

Again this Topic is to see if the Community would like to See all LRMs as Useful,
Large Launchers at this point arnt worth taking, even for support(Ammo),

=0= (Please Vote) =0=

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Quote Fixed,
Edit2- Updated Navids Post,
Edit3- Added Bishops Topic,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 29 August 2016 - 06:31 PM.

[Hoffenstein]

Any way you can put normalization of rate-of-fire as a vote option too? LRM 5 and 15 should both be lighter at the expense of heat, players shouldn't be punished for taking a 20-rack.

[ManDaisy]

This makes sense... but good luck gathering support in alpha warrior online and also from those who feel not being hit by missiles is their god given right.

[GabrielSun]

ManDaisy, on 25 August 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

This makes sense... but good luck gathering support in alpha warrior online and also from those who feel not being hit by missiles is their god given right.

This doesn't seem like it's about not being hit, but rather more focused fire for missiles, is it not?

[Andi Nagasia]

GabrielSun, on 25 August 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

This doesn't seem like it's about not being hit, but rather more focused fire for missiles, is it not?

correct this is more about balancing missiles to one another, that way Balance to other weapons can more forward,

[VonBruinwald]

Normalise spread is a must. But not to LRM5 width, I say normalise it to LRM15, 10 with Artemis and down to 5 with NARC/TAG.

It adds more weight to IW/teamplay and cuts down on the LRM5 boating.

[Navid A1]

Too bad that feature suggestion section is like the graveyard of these forums

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, I'd go for LRM10 with LOS, LRM15 or even LRM20 spread indirect for ALL launchers.

But no matter what spread values you went for, ALL launchers must have the same spread radius.

[Usagi Mcdeath]

Since the early Versions of MechWarrior, like "Solaris VII" missile boats have been feared. And now I've seen a LRM 5 gun boat..It looked like rain pouring down on his targets. It was a scary awesome. So how do you fix this, by doing what was said above, close the missile lock spread. You have a lock on, so why would so many locked missiles miss. But even missile boats have a fear, fast moving light mechs with ECM and close up weapons where missiles mean squat.

I was anti-armor infantry in the Army, and 2 to 6 little soldiers (crunches) could take down a 60 Ton main battle tank. In MW the best fix would to close the spread and Mod anti-missile boat mechs..

Thanks

[GabrielSun]

I think it's a good idea, but LRMs right now are rather a waste of tonnage for the elite crowd who favour direct fire. Would this be enough to make them more interesting?

[Wintersdark]

You don't get how broken 5's are vs. 20's? 5's weight less per tube, cycle faster, spread tighter. LRM20's are strictly worse in all situations, period. 20's are so bad, in fact, that if you take an LRM15 instead, you do higher DPS with fewer missiles - a straight 1:1 trade too.

Ah, nevermind. If the problems aren't immediately apparent, there's no point trying to explain it.

It's not about communication or positioning. We're experienced players, not newbies - there's no cries of OP LRM's here (MWO rule of thumb #1: If you think LRM's are overpowered, it's because you're terribad).

If you want to use LRM's effectively, you use small launchers - 5's, 10's. Maybe 15's, if you know you're targeting assaults, but otherwise they're a waste too.

Because those big launchers?

It's not about, as you so poorly put it, wanting CT seeking missiles. 15's and 20's will flat out miss a motionless Atlas because they spread so much. That's just dumb. If the bigger, heavier (both overall and per-tube), slower cycling weapon is also less effective per tube, it just doesn't get used... Well except for people who have no idea what they're doing.

They should all have the same spread. That shouldn't be tiny - shouldn't be "CT homing" - but there needs to be value in taking larger launchers, but right now there isn't. I'll kill faster with one LRM10 than I will with one LRM20, and that's just dumb.

[Aesthetech]

GabrielSun, on 26 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

I think it's a good idea, but LRMs right now are rather a waste of tonnage for the elite crowd who favour direct fire. Would this be enough to make them more interesting?

5's get used (at least on mechs with sufficient quirks) and occasionally 10's (depending on size of mechs + hardpoints and again, quirks) at least by some. Because they don't completely and utterly suck, and can be used in a meaningful direct fire support capacity.

However, there aren't too many mechs that have sufficient hardpoints and sufficient quirks to make 5's or 10's feasible to the more experienced crowd, and combining that with an attitude of disdain this limits exposure to properly used LRM's.

If LRM20's/15's were able to perform equally in terms of damage (and superior in regards to heat per second, as LRM5's at least weigh less and should be accounted for accordingly), you'd see at least some additional use at higher levels.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Source Mystic,
you do good with LRM15s and this is good, but for most this isnt the case
most players feel that LRMs need normalized Spread to be fair to larger Launchers,
Normalizing spread will help all LRM Launched stand ground with each other,

also your using a mech with -15%Missile Heat, -30%LRM15 Cooldown, and +10%Velocity,
a mech without these Substantial Quirks wouldnt preform very well, in the same circumstances,
all weapons should be Viable not just on heavily Quirked mechs(See PPC Velocity)

also i dont Doubt your skill with LRMs, you getting them to work for you,
but if an Army Ranger says Sniping is Easy, that doesnt Necessarily mean Everyone does,
some have an easier time than others, & if the majority says it needs a buff, Perhaps it needs a buff,
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 28 August 2016 - 07:35 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Source Mystic, on 28 August 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

I use a 8R awesome with 2700 lrm tag and 4 x15

Best range is 400 - 600m

I would never chose 5s 10 or 20s over my 15s

... Because the 8R has 15% LRM15 cooldowns added on to 15% base missile cooldowns.

Are you either being deliberately obtuse or is this beyond your grasp? Basically, are you just trolling or are you not smart enough to understand the issue that 15% cooldown is a huge buff, which helps compensate for the fact that LRM15's are objectively inferior to LRM10's or LRM5's?

Quote

so I really can not see your point

Oh, well that answers that then, I guess.

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I just broke my record1300 to 1401 damage

More damage done to potatoes is no a useful indicator. Do you really think that you've cottoned on to some brilliant thing, and are the superior mechwarrior, when LRM use is virtually nonexistent in any kind of even remotely competitive environment; and when the RARE time LRM's are taken it is always with piles of LRM's or maybe 10's? All those people just don't get it, and want a crutch?

I can tell you, with absolute confidence, the people at high level play aren't looking for a crutch. They're already using an objectively inferior weapon and they know it, but are doing their best to make it work. But they want the big launchers to at least be as good as the little ones, and right now they are not.

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I expect to get more out of it soon I keep learning all kinds of tricks

Everyone hates this mech they say they hate 15s suck how much can they suck if i can get 1300 or 1400 in a game.

Because LRM use vs potatoes is trivial. If you get 1300-1400 damage in a game with LRM's, it's because you're wallowing in the kiddy pool. Clubbing people who don't understand how to use a rock to block slow moving missiles is neither an indication of the build's success nor is it an indication of your ability.

Quote

What you are asking for is a crutch to hold you up and pgi will not do what you want it is a fact.

Uh huh. Except I'm running LRM5's on my only LRM mechs. This doesn't make my mechs better, it makes them worse, because the target should be LRM10 spread.


Again:

LRM20's are so bad, taking one means you'll do the same or even less damage against your target, per volley, as an LRM15, because so many missiles will miss entirely even if the target is a reasonably large stationary mech. Those LRM20's also cycle slower, so they do less burst AND less DPS.

The same thing happens when considering LRM15's vs. LRM10's: You do more damage per volley with 10's, the 10's fire faster (crazy LRM15 quirks aside).


Just because a weapon works well on a mech with major quirks DOES NOT MEAN THAT WEAPON IS FINE. What part of that is confusing for you?

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 August 2016 - 07:36 AM.

[Sader325]

Overwhelming vote for normalization.

Surprise.

[GabrielSun]

Aposiopesis, on 28 August 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

If LRM20's/15's were able to perform equally in terms of damage (and superior in regards to heat per second, as LRM5's at least weigh less and should be accounted for accordingly), you'd see at least some additional use at higher levels.

I'm not into LRMs and the change probably won't make me get into them. I have some Archers and I leveled them, but haven't touched them in months. The play style more than the weapon is what makes me stay away. I'm just wondering how much this will make a difference to players like myself that don't really play it because it's less "fighty".

[DAEDALOS513]

buff to lrms.. lol.. why are you trying to help pgi ruin this game>?

[Andi Nagasia]

DAEDALOS513, on 29 August 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

buff to lrms.. lol.. why are you trying to help pgi ruin this game>?

will better Large LRMs Ruin the game? Probably not,
but it will make 1LRM20 useful to take wont it?

[DAEDALOS513]

Andi Nagasia, on 29 August 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

will better Large LRMs Ruin the game? Probably not,
but it will make 1LRM20 useful to take wont it?

So you guys want to be able to do more pinpoint damage with a weapon that can be fired from 600+ meters out, that doesn't require line of sight (because you know, "locks are appreciated"), and on top of that with no aiming skills necessary? What's next, you want PGI to add auto-aim for your lasers?

Sorry, LRM buffs are not wanted. If you learn to play the game right, you will see lrm's hurt your team more than help. If they are buffed, this game will lose more (good) players and all you'll have is yourselves to lurm each other to death from 800m.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 29 August 2016 - 01:36 PM.

[Destoroyah]

DAEDALOS513, on 29 August 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

So you guys want to be able to do more pinpoint damage with a weapon that can be fired from 600+ meters out, that doesn't require line of sight (because you know, "locks are appreciated"), and on top of that with no aiming skills necessary? What's next, you want PGI to add auto-aim for your lasers?

Sorry, LRM buffs are not wanted. If you learn to play the game right, you will see lrm's hurt your team more than help. If they are buffed, this game will lose more (good) players and all you'll have is yourselves to lurm each other to death from 800m.

No one is asking for pinpoint damage on LRMs just a fix to the performance disparity of the bigger launchers to the smallest. The LRM 5 is so much more efficient then 15s and 20s there is no reason to ever use them cause equivalent numbers of 5s beat the larger launcher every time.

People that say LRMs are no skill weapons are full of it. It might not be twitch skill like the other weapons but requires tactical skills if you want to get the most out of the weapon. You got to take in account trajectory, terrain, missle speed, location of target, your location, ease of access to available cover for the target, etc. Yes you could just sit in one spot and hold down the fire button, but unless your opponents are complete incompetents your not going to do anything of note.
The good LRM pilots know you got to move around the battlefield to get to spots that'll make it hard for the enemy to easily avoid your salvos or to flush them out of comfort spots so your team can chew them up, or just to act as a area denial mech while your team closes in for a flanking attack.

Edited by Destoroyah, 29 August 2016 - 02:11 PM.