49 replies to this topic

[Lyoto Machida]

RestosIII, on 24 August 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

I've made it my goal to have a full stable if lore builds for me to use for most of my matches. All I've run this last week is lore loadouts. (Obviously armor/ammo values excluded, I'm not THAT insane) I would love it if we didn't "stop getting caught up in stock builds". A stock/lore loadout should be capable of firing it's automatically setup salon groups without providing ghost heat/energy. Now, I will say to the OP: you don't "need" to fire all 3 at once. Doing that in TT was a good way to cook yourself, no different here. Volley fire or fire 2 then 1.



Speaking of the Nova Prime, I wasn't able to test it on the PTS, won't firing 6 ER MLas go over the spooky heat threshold? Feel like the Nova at least should get a quirk or something to allow it to fire half its weapons without breaking that threshold.

I'm guessing like stock+ type builds? Default weapons but upgraded cooling/speed/armor/etc?

[Grifthin]

Even on live at the moment it's far more heat efficient to fire your PPC's 2 + 1 instead of firing all 3/4 at once. Nothing has changed.

[DerMaulwurf]

Right now you get a penalty of 12 heat for alphaing 3PPCs. With the new iteration of ED the penalty would be 6!

Even with the increased base heat a 3PPC alpha actually becomes MORE viable. And staggering your fire still plays the same.

No wonder why PGI holds this community in such contempt.

[Bobzilla]

DerMaulwurf, on 25 August 2016 - 03:43 AM, said:

Right now you get a penalty of 12 heat for alphaing 3PPCs. With the new iteration of ED the penalty would be 6!

Even with the increased base heat a 3PPC alpha actually becomes MORE viable. And staggering your fire still plays the same.

No wonder why PGI holds this community in such contempt.

But the same applies to every other alpha in the game , so comparatively it got worse vs every other build. You'd make sense if they kept the old GH for everything else and the changes only applied to PPC's.

[RestosIII]

Lyoto Machida, on 24 August 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

I'm guessing like stock+ type builds? Default weapons but upgraded cooling/speed/armor/etc?

Pretty much. Mostly been running only Clan mechs recently, and they have a much better time with their lore builds. No single heatsinks and lack of ferro/endo for me due to lore reasons. Main thing I change is pulling out ammo for weapons I know I won't use much, and sticking it back in in the form of armor and ammo for the guns I know I'll use.

[DerMaulwurf]

Bobzilla, on 25 August 2016 - 04:12 AM, said:

But the same applies to every other alpha in the game , so comparatively it got worse vs every other build. You'd make sense if they kept the old GH for everything else and the changes only applied to PPC's.

LPLs go from a penalty of 21 to 20, but lose 5 points of damage. LPL+ML goes from nothing to something. So does nGauss+Lasers/PPCs. SRM Ghost heat gets larger. AC/5 gets nerfed preemptively. AC/40 also gets puninshed harsher than under GH1.0.

So, actually it's the other way around.

[Angel of Annihilation]

This is directly from Lore:

"To handle the tremendous heat load of its weaponry the Awesome carries twenty-eight heat sinks, although even these can be overwhelmed; most pilots only fire two of their PPCs per salvo to reduce the strain."

At energy draw of 12, seems like you can absolutely fire two (2) PPCs per salvo without penalty.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 25 August 2016 - 05:37 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

I still cannot see why the PPCs had to receive such a treatment. It is not that you could spam that weapon...

[Bishop Steiner]

Dingo Red, on 24 August 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

Yeah, no. I was on both the firing and the receiving end of triple and quad PPC Awesomes during the first PTS. It was not awesome. And I am a dedicated Awesome pilot.

Since a lot of people don't seem to quite grasp this, I'll bold it:

Just because a 'mech has a certain loadout of weapons, stock, lore, TT or otherwise, doesn't mean it should be able to alpha it. The Awesome and Nova are good examples of this. You do not need to alpha a loadout in order to "use" it.


The Awesome is not great. However, allowing it to alpha three PPCs comfortably pushes it a bit far. Especially since you're opening a can of worms in that if you allow the Awesome to alpha three, you allow everything else to as well. And that was a problem. Fire 2x1 if you're doing a triple PPC build, it works fine, and allows much, much better heat control.

Difference between the Awesome and Nova in lore? Nova never could alpha it's whole compliment, whereas the AWS is built to deliver 2-3 alphas before dialing back to 2 PPC for a turn, then right back to alpha mode.

With the extended cool down, the AWS also doesn't really have the RoF it used, to, (which is of course still higher than in TT), but realistically with the PTS 2.0 changes to PPC there is little to no reason not to boost their velocity again.

And in the end, it's not how the Awesome performs in a bubble that matters, but seeing how it stacks up with every other mech laboring under the same restrictions. And that will take a lot more testing to really determine.

[Khobai]

Quote

I still cannot see why the PPCs had to receive such a treatment. It is not that you could spam that weapon...

because theyre trying to slap a new draw system on top of the existing draw system instead of just fixing the previous draw system

of course nothing is going to make sense because the whole concept of having two draw systems is nonsensical.

the correct way to fix the game wouldve been to fix the original draw system: heat scale. not introduce a second draw system.

although I agree with slowing down the rate of fire on weapons. but this energy draw crap needs to be removed in favor of a fix to the heatscale.

Edited by Khobai, 25 August 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Trauglodyte, on 24 August 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

They bumped the energy draw of PPCs to 12 and reverted the prior PPC heat buffs from a few patches back. Now, the only mech in the game that was intended to carry 3x PPCs can't actually use 3x PPCs because of GH 2.0 (again). Why is it that the meta-***** community keeps screwing over a mech that, hit boxes aside, might actually be decent if folks would just stop being douchey?

My ED feedback was lower the draw values of non PPFLD weapons (lasers, LB, SRMs, LRMs) to balance them against the ability to fire 3 PPCs with no penalty. But PGI listened to the loud whining and Kanajashi's review/feedback video about RAISING PPFLD weapon draw values instead. You have only those people blame.

Bishop Steiner, on 25 August 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

AWS is built to deliver 2-3 alphas before dialing back to 2 PPC for a turn, then right back to alpha mode.

That's awesome.

B-b-b-but what about all those people who say alphas weren't the primary firing mode for mechs in Battletech?

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

My ED feedback was lower the draw values of non PPFLD weapons (lasers, LB, SRMs, LRMs) to balance them against the ability to fire 3 PPCs with no penalty. But PGI listened to the loud whining and Kanajashi's review/feedback video about RAISING PPFLD weapon draw values instead. You have only those people blame.



That's awesome.

B-b-b-but what about all those people who say alphas weren't the primary firing mode for mechs in Battletech?

They weren't. Only ahandful of mechs were built to do so, though many people really don't understand that since "alpha strike" simply meant firing your whole weapon compliment, a LCV-1V firing it's Medium laser and 2 MGs counted as an "alpha". Part of the confusion, from what I gathered arguing with Koniving and a couple others is MegaMek apparently has some optional and frankly, ridiculous "Alpha Strike" rule.

But the majority of mechs packing MWO levels of firepower actually couldn't alpha, without risking shutdown, etc. Look at the Warhawk, it's alpha was 4x C-ERPPC and 1x LRM10. That's a 64-65 or so, heat alpha. With only 20 DHS, that's almost instant shutdown. And probably going to detonate the LRM ammo.

The difference is the Alpha didn't put every single weapon on the same component (unless using a TC and taking a serious to hit penalty). Which also meant the alpha was often simply not worth the heat to damage trade off. And in a game where the average hit rate was 50% for elite warriors, on average, you willing to lower your probability to 20-25% chance of hitting, when that means 75-80% chance of completely missing? (and still shutting down, ammo exploding, either way)

Simply put, in my experience most people talking about alpha strikes from either side of the aisle really are kind of short on facts.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Log onto PTS. Its vacant right now. Long wait times. So I think most complaints have not been tested out. I have been using it and fine with everything so far.

I know you all have favorite mechs but like life everything changes. Try something else.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mudhutwarrior, on 25 August 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

Log onto PTS. Its vacant right now. Long wait times. So I think most complaints have not been tested out. I have been using it and fine with everything so far.

I know you all have favorite mechs but like life everything changes. Try something else.

I played it for a couple hours after the update the other day. Last night was dead. I definitely tried it, so don't pull the "complaints haven't been tested" BS argument.

I'm tired of every anti-Energy Draw argument being defaced by accusations of not trying it or trying to protect no skill pet meta mechs.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 August 2016 - 01:03 PM.

[Aramoro999]

DerMaulwurf, on 25 August 2016 - 03:43 AM, said:

No wonder why PGI holds this community in such contempt.

Well, with all the mech packs being sold, i think that's not true.
They probably have low expectations however...

Edited by Aramoro999, 25 August 2016 - 02:06 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

I played it for a couple hours after the update the other day. Last night was dead. I definitely tried it, so don't pull the "complaints haven't been tested" BS argument.

I'm tired of every anti-Energy Draw argument being defaced by accusations of not trying it or trying to protect no skill pet meta mechs.

Tryhards trained most of us to react like that. You know that stomper mentality. It doesn't like to be disturbed to think more than clubbing baby seals.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mudhutwarrior, on 25 August 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

Tryhards trained most of us to react like that. You know that stomper mentality. It doesn't like to be disturbed to think more than clubbing baby seals.

There is nothing better than coordinated teamplay against another coordinated and equally skilled team, which requires more thought than you could possibly imagine, compared to standard solo pug queue. Haven't had that in a while though because my unit is mostly inactive right now.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 August 2016 - 02:06 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

El Bandito, on 24 August 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

This changes nothing. I fire my PPCs 2x2 currently, and I will do the same should PTS changes go to live. Besides, with all the complaining, I am 90% sure that PGI will revert some of the nerfs to PPCs.

Khobai, on 24 August 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

this energy draw bullsh*t is going to ruin whatever redeeming qualities MWO had as a game

its such a horrible bandaid that completely sidesteps the fact the game already had a draw system called heat and thats what PGI shouldve fixed rather than slapping a second draw system on top of the old one.

Awesome cant fire three PPCs without a penalty. And now we cant even fire two gauss rifles at the same time without a penalty? wtf is that?

Lightfoot, on 24 August 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

PGI fears DHS 2.0 so the DHS 1.4 functional cap works for Lasers, but not ERPPCs. Result. Stock Awesome has trouble working. I am surprised that the main part of Energy Draw doesn't allow for DHS 2.0, but some crutches are just beloved I guess.

Oh look more people about the same thing I literally just posted about... The ****** up thing? 3x2xERPPC is WORKING. It works just like the current 2x2ERPPC does but without overheating you into shutdown.

Meanwhile, I will reiterate, I WAS FIRING FOUR (4) ERPPCS at the SAME TIME, and not overheating.

MauttyKoray, on 24 August 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

Been playing the Awesome in PTS...not seeing the problem you supposedly are having...

I can fire 3 ER PPCs and only go up to 59% heat in Forest Colony...

Hell, I can fire FOUR (4) ER PPCs in the same map AND NOT PASS 100% HEAT!!!

Please tell me again how broken and unusable these weapons are on an awesome against compared to Ghost Heat? Or for that matter, at all in general? Stop concentrating on using nothing but PPCs, if you want 3 fine, put some other lasers and heatsinks on as well.

I mean FFS!!!!!!!! If I play the system CORRECTLY, I CAN FIRE SIX (6), YEAH YOU HEARD ME SIX, AND STILL NOT OVERHEAT by firing them in groups of 2 and allowing ED to regen enough to fire another group without triggering the heat penalty from ED.

Can I alpha them? No, not six, but stop trying to be a stupid alpha warrior which is one of the problems this game has.

I've been an Awesome pilot since I started, its my favorite mech. Back when people considered the awesome a useless barn door that was a waste of tonnage? I was wrecking faces with it and ripping them to pieces with 4xPPC builds with backup weapons. Just because you suck in it doesn't mean its broken...go try to find something to supplant your meta-tryhard-playstyle/builds since most of them get rammed from behind in the PTS.

[TLBFestus]

I'm a little tired of people posting to complain that "I can only get off 3, maybe 2 alpha strikes without over-heating!!!"

Daggummit.....Alpha strikes were intended as last ditch, desperation actions that had a HIGH RISK for their high reward.

I'd just like to simplify the whole problem for everyone;

"Every time you chose to use an Alpha Strike, you stand a 20% chance to spontaneously EXPLODE".

I'd enjoy watching mechs suddenly "pop" all over the map during the game. Maybe 20% is too low......

[Mystere]

TLBFestus, on 25 August 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

I'm a little tired of people posting to complain that "I can only get off 3, maybe 2 alpha strikes without over-heating!!!"

Daggummit.....Alpha strikes were intended as last ditch, desperation actions that had a HIGH RISK for their high reward.

I'd just like to simplify the whole problem for everyone;

"Every time you chose to use an Alpha Strike, you stand a 20% chance to spontaneously EXPLODE".

I'd enjoy watching mechs suddenly "pop" all over the map during the game. Maybe 20% is too low......

Are you telling everyone a Locust 1V with only 1ML and 2MGs should explode when it alpha strikes?!!!