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Power Draw, An Unessisary Band-Aid


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#1 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:53 AM

NOTE: THE NUMBER VALUES I GIVE FOR HEAT CAPACITY ARE NOT EXACTLY WHAT I WANT, THESE ARE A ROUGH ESTIMATE. THE BASIC IDEA IS TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF WEAPONS YOU CAN FIRE ALL AT ONCE, WHILE INCREASING YOUR OVERALL CYCLIC RATE OF FIRE DUE TO INCREASED DISSIPATION. LESS ALPHA, MORE DAMAGE OVER TIME.

TL:DR Dont add gimmick mechanics, fix the core problems- the heat system itself.

Ive posted this....Probably...6 times now over the few years I've played this game, I feel the need to post this again with the upcoming nerf patch.

We don't need Ghost heat. We don't need Power draw. What needs to happen, and what has always needed to happen is an entire revamp of the heat system. My suggestion would solve multiple problems while allowing much more diversity in peoples builds, and this game badly needs diversity.

If anyone remembers, ghost heat came about due to the old school 4x and 6x PPC stalkers that where running around one shotting everyone. If we fixed the heat system properly then, that build would never have happened. Here are my Ideas:

- Give us true 2.0 heatsinks across the board. Right now cramming in tons of heatsinks does not seem to give us much return. I have 27 double heat sinks in what is basically a canon Warhawk prime sans-LRMS and I can barely keep the thing cool enough even for sustained chain fired PPCS for long range support, which is basically that mechs/builds SOLE purpose. IT also ties in with my next suggestion.

- A HARD heat limit cap. Your heat capacity will be cut roughly half to possibly 1/3 of what is is now. Adding additional heat sinks will NOT increase your capacity much, if at all. Reduce the effectiveness of the pilot tree heat capacity upgrade. This can also be a de-facto ghost heat system. With the new heat capacity for example, you could STILL only fire 2 ERPPC's. BUT with true 2.0 heatsinks your mech cools off much quicker after that salvo allowing faster follow up shots. or allowing you to fire other backup weapons without some silly energy bar Basically less alpha > more DPS. Higher TTK instead of all front loaded damage.

WHAT THIS DOES:

The current heat capacity is why we have such massive alphas flying around now. My "Novaborn" for example can fire 2 CLPLS and 6 ER-medium lasers at once and only top out around 72% heat on Caustic valley....thats enough alpha to core any other heavy in one hit, and potentially one shot light and medium mechs while still having 22+ heatsinks. With the new system i can fire the 2 lpls' or the 6 ermedium lasers, but not all at once. Again. Less alpha, higher damage over time, since my mech with 22 TRUE double heatinks will cool off much faster. Higher TTK but no gimmicks restricting my builds.

- Reduce environmental effects on heat capacity. Hot maps should not make your mech's weapon heat spike higher, nor should cold maps reduce how much heat your generate. So if 2 ppcs give you 80% heat on caustic, they give you the same 80% on Frozen city...however, your mech will probably hit acceptable heat levels to fire off another pair of PPCS on Frozen LONG before they do on caustic. outside temperature should only affect heat DISSIPATION, not heat capacity.

- ADD HEAT PENALTIES. THIS HAS ALWAYS NEEDED TO BE A PART OF THIS GAME. In every game previously there where serious penalties to overheating your mech, or keeping your reactor in the red. Add movement pentalies, internals damage and the like for keeping your reactor in the "red zone" Add clearer indications on the heat bar for how hot your reactor is, and how long you are in the danger zone before you start taking damage.

For example lets say the "danger zone" for reactor heat was 85%+ once you hit this heat level, you get a small timer over your heat bar telling you how long you have to cool off before you start taking internal damage. This internal damage could be mild ranging to severe depening on how far into the red your mech stays. It can start with light internals damage on the shallow end, along with movement speed pentalties Molymer never liked being overheated last i read) ranging up to ammo cookoffs to heat sinks melting down on the severe end (95%+ heat for extended periods)

The timer can be long enough so that sudden heat spikes that redline/shut you down dont cause huge damage, but short enough that kiting your mech at dangerous heat levels for extended periods has detrimental effects.

HEAT MANAGEMENT IS A SKILL IN THE MECHWARRIOR UNIVERSE. AS IMPORTANT AS GUNNERY AND PILOTING, IT IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE GAME. If you are a bad shot you get rewarded with losing your mech to accurate return fire. if you are a bad pilot, you wind up getting outplayed by people who roll your damage while they ct core you in a few salvoes...if you are bad at building mechs and pacing fire to balance your heat generated, you should also be punished.

This new system will encourage more balanced builds that pack less weaponry, and more heat sinks. Builds that mix energy and ballistics or energy/missiles or some combination of the three will be rewarded more than just boating several large weapons. Without the ghost heat weapons heat could be tweaked a bit to allow more build diversity. We could allow 4x Large lasers now since you wont be able to fire as much weaponry all at once, and heat could be tweaked on a case by case basis depending on how the builds play out. But less "dangerous" builds like medium laser boats that dont have the tonnage to really pack on larger weapons wont suffer under the current heat system anymore. Builds that now run too hot should run much cooler, like Brawler Atases and the like...15 double heat sinks should be more than enough to keep a few medium lasers and an AC20 cold under the new system, making IS brawlers even much more dangerous. On the other hand the clans get a bit of a buff, since they usually sacrafice TONS of space for lots of heatsinks. Clan alpha will be reduced, but the clans long range sustained DPS will increase since The abhorrent amount of double heatsinks you can cram in their mechs will finally pay off.

This avoids the power draw mechanic that will hurt mixed builds that run simple things like LRM+ a few lasers Or mechs that Mix ballistics and energy weapons, like Dire Wolves. People are already working around this mechanic by switching to PPC/Gauss again and that will just have detrimental effects for the gameplay again, and result in MORE UNNECESSARY NERFS.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 22 August 2016 - 09:40 AM.


#2 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:01 AM

Additon: Massively overheating your mech (120% or so) results in instant death....

#3 Spheroid

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:05 AM

So what is your proposal for boated ballistics then? Heat is not a limiting factor.

#4 DrxAbstract

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:07 AM

I'm not going to say you're wrong, because I very much enjoyed the Mech 2 heat system (And weapons style) over this one: Rapid build-up, rapid cooldown... But that game had TT Armor figures and allowed much, much faster kills plus respawning which was balanced by the latency (lag shooting).

Ok so I'm biased...

The Power Draw mechanic on PTS is not the final iteration of what we'll get (Although it's likely to be, given PGI's history), but I have hopes PGI will learn from the past and make good changes...

On the note of Clan Long Range sustained DPS - No. They don't need it. The fact they can already sit at range and decimate armor via Guass and ER Large/ER PPC/Large Pulse combinations and short-range builds getting rocked before they can close distance - Clans do not need to be better at it than they already are.

#5 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:10 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 21 August 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

So what is your proposal for boated ballistics then? Heat is not a limiting factor.


That is the advantage of ballistics. That has ALWAYS been the advantage of ballistics. You are only limited by your ammo capacity, however, a 4 UAC5 king crab isnt going to kill you nearly as fast as a someone packing on a ton of Large pulse lasers. Ballistic boats still need lots of face time, and unless you catch some one at short range/not paying attention have fairly high TTK. And lets be honest. the only mech that can currently be a danger that boats autocannons is the KD-3. and even its only dangerous if it pops up on you at short range. At medium to long range those uac10s spread thier damage all over the place.

#6 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:14 AM

View PostDrxAbstract, on 21 August 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

I'm not going to say you're wrong, because I very much enjoyed the Mech 2 heat system (And weapons style) over this one: Rapid build-up, rapid cooldown... But that game had TT Armor figures and allowed much, much faster kills plus respawning which was balanced by the latency (lag shooting).

Ok so I'm biased...

The Power Draw mechanic on PTS is not the final iteration of what we'll get (Although it's likely to be, given PGI's history), but I have hopes PGI will learn from the past and make good changes...

On the note of Clan Long Range sustained DPS - No. They don't need it. The fact they can already sit at range and decimate armor via Guass and ER Large/ER PPC/Large Pulse combinations and short-range builds getting rocked before they can close distance - Clans do not need to be better at it than they already are.


It will definitely be the final iteration and will probably go live to much wailing and gnashing of teeth. I'm honestly probably gonna uninstall if it does and wont even bother playing my Cyclops mechs I pre-ordered....

Clans long range alpha would get dropped off a bit since they wont be able to fire AS MANY lasers at you at once,

What you describe is mostly a map design issue. As the maps are, and almost always have been its better to bring long range weaponry since all the maps are so freaking huge and open now, your opportunties for brawling are limited.

With the new system in place most of your typical IS brawlers would be incredibly cold running and could easily kick the snot out of most clan long range specked mechs at shorter ranges hold a KD3 or Dire whale (lol) boating autocannons. The time it would take you to cool off after firing your CLPLS or C ERPPC An IS brawler would be able to pump several salvoes of mediums/ac20s/SRM's into you while still being fairly cold.

Edit: And hell, why DONT we have a game mode that allows respawns???

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 21 August 2016 - 11:22 AM.


#7 davoodoo

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:53 AM

Ive posted it in another thread and ill post it here

View Postdavoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Unless heat sinks works instantly, by taking heat into them then dissipating it then current heat capacity is attempt at implementing tt rules though very poor.

Simply put, if you had 10 dhs, you could fire 49 heat alpha and you would have 29/30 heat next turn but you wouldnt shutdown).
If you added extra 10 dhs then you could fire 69 heat alpha instead and not shutdown because heat sinks took heat off in the same turn the weapons were fired.

If you removed heat capacity then it would simply limit how much you can fire meaning that awesome couldnt fire 3 erppcs without instant shutdown regardless whether heat sinks can dissipate heat before cooldown or not...

If you wanted accurate interpretation of tt rules then
1 dhs would need to negate 2 points(1 for shs) of heat then go on a cooldown(looking at weapon cooldowns i would say 4s, half if dhs absorbed only 1 point of heat) during which time it wouldnt dissipate any heat. Any heat sinks which arent on cooldown would then dissipate leftover heat which wasnt absorbed by heat sinks.

Which would effectively mean that
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa147e78c7f5419
this awesome would fire all 3 ppcs and generate 0.5heat, then not dissipate anything for 4 seconds

If you do that 30 point tt heatscale would work perfectly, you can even add dice rolls for shutdown starting at 14 heat.
You can even add hud element telling you how many heat sinks you have off cd.

This is ******* battletech license so use more of source material...


Heat capacity in some form is required, otherwise 3 erppc would blow you no matter what which is ******* ridiculous and makes me wonder how would
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...51693c0a1cbed91
this thing work... While in tt it produced only 5 heat by firing all 3 erppc at once effectivelly allowing you to fire 6 times before needing to restart the machine...

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 11:58 AM.


#8 Mystere

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:06 PM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 21 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

TL:DR Dont add gimmick mechanics, fix the core problems- the heat system automatic near-instant pinpoint convergence itself.


FTFY. Posted Image

#9 kapusta11

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:07 PM

View PostSpheroid, on 21 August 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

So what is your proposal for boated ballistics then? Heat is not a limiting factor.


What's wrong with boated ballisitcs?

Jeez, it looks like everything is "problematic" now. It's almost like everyone turned into 3d wave feminist or SJW.

Edited by kapusta11, 21 August 2016 - 12:09 PM.


#10 Mystere

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:11 PM

View Postkapusta11, on 21 August 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Jeez, it looks like everything is "problematic" now. It's almost like everyone turned into 3d wave feminist or SJW.


You talk as if asking that women should have the same rights as men, and that justice should be applied equally for everyone is "problematic". Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 21 August 2016 - 12:11 PM.


#11 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:12 PM

View Postdavoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ive posted it in another thread and ill post it here


Heat capacity in some form is required, otherwise 3 erppc would blow you no matter what which is ******* ridiculous and makes me wonder how would
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...51693c0a1cbed91
this thing work... While in tt it produced only 5 heat by firing all 3 erppc at once effectivelly allowing you to fire 6 times before needing to restart the machine...


I acutally have no issue with 3 standard PPCS under the new system. Like I said the heat could be adjusted on a case by case basis depending on the weapons and build being employed. I'm sure nobody is really going to complain about 3 standard ppc awesomes doing what is now a paltry 30 damage with the short range and long range limitations of the weapons.
ER ppcs however should probably still follow the same "2 only" rule, however the IS ones would not generate quite as much heat as the clan ones and equipped mechs, if they carry enough sinks would be able to fire a follow up shot sooner than a clan counterpart.

View PostMystere, on 21 August 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:


FTFY. Posted Image


That is actually a whole nother argument that I honestly dont have the time to try to explain. Suffice to say convergence a symptom of a much larger problem.

#12 davoodoo

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:19 PM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 21 August 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:


I acutally have no issue with 3 standard PPCS under the new system. Like I said the heat could be adjusted on a case by case basis depending on the weapons and build being employed. I'm sure nobody is really going to complain about 3 standard ppc awesomes doing what is now a paltry 30 damage with the short range and long range limitations of the weapons.
ER ppcs however should probably still follow the same "2 only" rule, however the IS ones would not generate quite as much heat as the clan ones and equipped mechs, if they carry enough sinks would be able to fire a follow up shot sooner than a clan counterpart.

Maybe more extreme example
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6ceb7ed718ef910
This should shutdown after 8 alphas and if it used only 3 er ppc it should be heat neutral.
60 heat per alpha, 56 dissipated.

There should be ex\actly 0 rules on what you can use and only thing limiting you being heat which you can negate with enough heat sinks.

TT didnt need them, mechwarrior 1 2 3 4 also didnt need them.

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 12:24 PM.


#13 Johnny Z

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:25 PM

CANT WAIT FOR POWER DRAW TO GO LIVE. HYPE LVL 9000.

#14 Coolant

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:27 PM

I don't know, i like ghost heat, and i like the new heat scale coming soon even better. It will stop ridiculous 50+ point energy alpha strikes. I can't wait to see how pilots who think they are something reduced to nothing.

There was no ghost heat or limiter in MW4:Mercs. Whatever the heat of the weapons the sum of them would be your total heat when fired. And, the alphas in MW4 were much higher (up to 120+).

So, MWO has improved that aspect (although I didn't mind the way MW4:Mercs was at all).

#15 davoodoo

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:36 PM

View PostCoolant, on 21 August 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

There was no ghost heat or limiter in MW4:Mercs. Whatever the heat of the weapons the sum of them would be your total heat when fired. And, the alphas in MW4 were much higher (up to 120+).

I played through mw4 assault arenas with 20 mlas daishi, cant remember being close to overheating even once.

#16 J a d e P h o e n i x

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:43 PM

View Postdavoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

I played through mw4 assault arenas with 20 mlas daishi, cant remember being close to overheating even once.

Yea, cause your heat dissipation was actually closer to accurate. The Daishi was CAPABLE of that.
Gawd forbid PGI ever adds the Super Nova with it's stock 6 ER large lasers and whopping amount of heatsinks.

#17 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:44 PM

View Postdavoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

Maybe more extreme example
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6ceb7ed718ef910
This should shutdown after 8 alphas and if it used only 3 er ppc it should be heat neutral.
60 heat per alpha, 56 dissipated.

There should be ex\actly 0 rules on what you can use and only thing limiting you being heat which you can negate with enough heat sinks.

TT didnt need them, mechwarrior 1 2 3 4 also didnt need them.


NO.

Under my suggested heat CAPACITY (the amount of heat you can actually HOLD in your mech), that build CAN ONLY FIRE 2 PPCS STILL. however with that insane amount of sinks you can fire another 2 shots faster than you can now. You are doing only 20 a hit to one secton, but you can do a follow up 20 again after your heat from the last pair dissapates....

Firing 3, hard shutdown.

Fire 4. you blow up.

Chain fire? you can fire fairly quickly for extended periods.

Limited alpha damage? Check. Higher TTK? Check. Power draw/ghost heat mechanic not needed in that instance. And a mech/build that is honestly considered just a novelty and not much of a threat gets a role. Long range fire support. As it should be.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 21 August 2016 - 12:50 PM.


#18 davoodoo

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:49 PM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 21 August 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:


NO.

Under my suggested heat cap, that build CAN ONLY FIRE 2 PPCS STILL. however with that insane amount of sinks you can fire another 2 shots faster than you can now. You are doing only 20 a hit to one secton, but you can do a follow up 20 again after your heat from the last pair dissapates....

Firing 3, hard shutdown.

Fire 4. you blow up.

Which is why im against your idea...

Youre doing bandaid fix on a problem which pgi invented themselves...

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 12:50 PM.


#19 FupDup

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:49 PM

View Postdavoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

I played through mw4 assault arenas with 20 mlas daishi, cant remember being close to overheating even once.

I'm pretty sure that the MW4 Daishi doesn't have enough hardpoint space for that. Last time I checked, it had a limit of 14 Medium Lasers (5 per arm, 4 in the CT).

#20 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:53 PM

View PostPheonix, on 21 August 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

Yea, cause your heat dissipation was actually closer to accurate. The Daishi was CAPABLE of that.
Gawd forbid PGI ever adds the Super Nova with it's stock 6 ER large lasers and whopping amount of heatsinks.


or the stock nova cat...it would actulaly be as dangerous as it is supposed to be but you cant fire all the weapons at once still...

There is one stock dire whale that should actually be pretty dam good..I forget the model. comes with 3 lpls and a gauss with some back up SRMS? It should honestly be a death machine with a well balanced all around loadout but nobody would play it under the current and upcoming heat systems.

View Postdavoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Which is why im against your idea...

Youre doing bandaid fix on a problem which pgi invented themselves...


How exactly is it a band aid fix when thats how it actually worked in canon?





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