29 replies to this topic

[Mazerius]

Gauss is always the elephant in the room when heat issues are mentioned so I'm curious why people are so adamant that we don't alter it somewhat from TT, as it makes no sense that it would be a low heat weapon. Ammo not exploding, fine, but a discharge of the amounts of power you'd need to use for a weapon like that would not be cold. So for this flat 30/high disappation idea simply mod the heat values to somewhat non TT values(some are)

Ballistics: 1 point of dmg = .5(possibly higher if this was still too low) heat so an AC20 would be 10 heat to help with what would happen if these weps weren't touched in asystem like this.

Lbx/2/5/10/20: not sure on these, the spreads pretty hammering at long range but up close they can be pretty beast.

Gauss specifically: 7.5-10 heat still different than an "AC 15" by velocity and no drop.

Lasers: Normal lasers 1 point of dmg = .75 or .8 heat(longer burn time)
Pulse lasers 1 point of dmg = .85 or .9 heat(shorter burn)

PPCs(IS): Nomal 1 point of dmg = .85 heat(min range, projectile) lets you alpha 3 then cool off.
ER 1 point of dmg = .95-1 heat(may adjust but 3 in an alpha is not unreasonable) This ones a little weird as its hard to adjust without invalidating standard PPCs.

Clan ER PPCs: 1 point of direct dmg = 1 heat. 1 point of splash dmg = .6 heat(so 2 in an alpha without penalties but 3 is possible with overide)

Missles, I'm not so sure about, spread+range+travel time etc. I'd be inclined to stick with 1 dmg = .5 heat would make srms hotter( possibly too hot ) but it would probably work for LRMs.

My 0.02$ for what its worth.

[Uncle Totty]

Pelmeshek, on 30 August 2016 - 03:26 AM, said:

And what problem with gauss? He have charge, big CD and 90% chance to explode. And how many mech u know who can carry 2 and more gauss? Plus u cant shoot with 3-4 gausses, only with 2 at once.

1. If you want the gauss to explode, take out the charge. If you want the gauss to need to charge, don't make it explode. Gauss rifles explode because the are always charged, so you can not have both.

2. Dire Wolfs can carry three gauss rifles very easily. (...and then some.) DWF-B

[Ardwolf]

The drawback to gauss isn't supposed to be heat, You morons gentlemen. Gauss rifles are supposed to have a HUGE cooldown in addition to knockback/screenshake after the shot. Right now it's a 4 second cooldown before quirks, that is stupid. The weapon is SUPPOSED to have roughly 8-10 seconds of downtime(Or even more for MWO), with that kind of change in addition to scrapping PGI's current dumb **** map pool(Alpine Peaks, Frozen City 2.0, Polar Highlands, and to a lesser extent Grim Plexus) we might actually see some semblance of balance that is also faithful to the original material.

The issue isn't with Gauss Rifles generating no heat, it's that they're firing about twice as fast as they should, and almost 1/3rd of the maps are EXTREMELY favorable for gauss and boating other long range weapons. Plus a good half of the remainder you can still get away with boating them. The only maps you might actually find yourself in a bind for having gauss rifles on your mech and under a real threat of getting your gauss rifle crit off are: HPG Manifold and Mining Collective. So let's recap!

Maps that punish boating gauss rifles: 2
Maps that are extremely favorable for long range exchanges: 4
Maps that you can still easily boat them and with decent play not be at risk of losing your gauss: 9

Gauss Rifle cooldown in MWO: 4 seconds.
Gauss Rifle cooldown in MW4: 8 seconds.

PGI's solution: First add a ******* charging mechanic, then limit the fire rate to 2 at a time, then remove their ******* charge mechanic in favor of limiting people from even boating more than 2 at a time.

Not that any of this matters, PGI is the worst developer this side of the stratosphere and has become notorious for ignoring the players in favor of trying to reinvent the wheel, and looking mighty stupid doing it.

[MrVei]

longer cool downs on big weapons, like PPCs, AC20, ER Llas and gauss with a lower heat cap would fix the TTK/alpha issue in this game. also we should not be able to pin point fire weapons when moving at max speed. the aim should shake when a 75 ton robot with two legs is moving at 70+ kph

[Appuagab]

MrVei, on 30 August 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

also we should not be able to pin point fire weapons when moving at max speed. the aim should shake when a 75 ton robot with two legs is moving at 70+ kph

I don't think that there are any issues with that because I can't remember to see any speedy roaming fat snipers, only autistic campers. There's also more than enough screen shaking now: MASC, jumpjets, LRMs, ballistics.

[ScarecrowES]

You can't have a flat heat cap. In TT your heat cap was related to your build for very good reasons. Here's a simple one. A 4x cUAC/10 Kodiak-3 only requires 24 heat to double-tap all 4 dakkas. 80pts of damage. In fact, lots of builds skirt right under a 30 heat cap. Many builds that that can't output nearly close to the same damage do double the heat per alpha.

Hard limits that don't take the build into account WILL NOT WORK. There's a reason the TT heat system is designed the way it is. It is possible to directly translate the TT heat system to work in MWO and have it tuned to a real-time pace. So I can't understand why we're not using THAT system, and are instead trying to find a hundred new ways to do what that system already does better.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

ScarecrowES, on 30 August 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

You can't have a flat heat cap. In TT your heat cap was related to your build for very good reasons. Here's a simple one. A 4x cUAC/10 Kodiak-3 only requires 24 heat to double-tap all 4 dakkas. 80pts of damage. In fact, lots of builds skirt right under a 30 heat cap. Many builds that that can't output nearly close to the same damage do double the heat per alpha.

Hard limits that don't take the build into account WILL NOT WORK. There's a reason the TT heat system is designed the way it is. It is possible to directly translate the TT heat system to work in MWO and have it tuned to a real-time pace. So I can't understand why we're not using THAT system, and are instead trying to find a hundred new ways to do what that system already does better.

Agreed, having heat capacity locked at 30 instead of starting at 50 and then adding more with each heatsink would actually accomplish majority of what Energy Draw wants to do. From there we would have to have PGI change damage and heat values (we really should just focus on balancing tech 1 stuff first then Tech 2 + Clan) to tabletop values and adjust from there.

So yes, lower heat cap, we have the PTS to see how it would work, PGI just seems to want to do everything the hard way.

Edited by Moonlight Grimoire, 30 August 2016 - 07:49 PM.

[vocifer]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 30 August 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

PGI just seems to want to do everything the hard way.

PGI is a taxi driver, they try to take the longest and most expensive route so you spend more time in the cabin.

[burning wisky]

there are lost of small steps to do for PGI, we are a strong community, and lots of the player are in the universe of Mechwarrior / battletech. i see many good ideas here to fix problems.



my idea to fix
the heatsystem how it works is good, but bring the overheatlimit down.

give us some penaltys for overheating
overheatare are 30 points

5 points = minus 5 % movemant/ Torso slower
8 points = 10% chance to shutdown / Focus problens
12points = minus 10 % movemant/ Torso slower
15points = 15% chance to shutdown / Focus problens
18points = minus 15 % movemant/ Torso slower
21points = 35 % chance to shutdown / Focus problens
24points = minus 20 %movemant/ Torso slower
27points = minus 30 %moveman/ Torso slower
30points = 100% shutdown

i lover the new GAUSS with longer loading time/ and directfire, because it is a big weapon with lots of damage. ( more Mechwarrior felling )
bring the other big weapons in the same way. U AC, best weapons in game now ( see the kodiak - one on one with a other big guy...... no chance )

PGI start with this.

and let us see, if it works on the testserver.

Edited by burning wisky, 30 August 2016 - 11:25 PM.

[Mad Cow Jenkins]

It's a much better idea to run a per chassis Heat limit, then a fixed value like 30, that also opens up to more variety between chassis for further balancing.

In regards to Gauss i see it as a "sniper" weapon and actually liked the charge mechanic, they should just have made it per Gauss so the more you had the longer the charge up instead of hard limiting. I guess most people do not like that limitation, so i would suggest if its always charged then it should put a drain on the engine i think -5% turn/torso/movement speed and -4 Heat capacity penalty is a good starting point per Gauss equipped.

The current alpha balance elements are hardpoints, heat and tonnage. PGI does not want to change the hardpoint system and tonnage because of lore lovers and tinkerers would cry a river to the end of time, so that leaves heat. So lower Heat Limit solves most of it, although there might be some cookie cutter mixed weapons setups that could dominate (Gauss + PPC/Laser *cough* *cough*).

The current boating balance are tonnage, hardpoints and "ghost heat". Quite a few weapons are to similar (mostly range and duration) for a mixed setup, and there is only one hardpoint per weapon type, weapon modules makes boating better, ammo is weapon dependent and the more specialized weapons need extra equipment Artemis & TAG. Which leaves "ghost heat" as the only restriction, now here is where a lower heat limit won't make any difference, but then again energi draw will have a hard time catching all the combinations.
It's a bit of a pickle particularly that the core issue is more related to hardpoint/module/ammo and not so much heat/energidraw and if i was PGI, reduce module bonus per weapon, let all missile weapons use same ammo and change how hardpoints work would be the first step. There are plenty of hardpoint solutions on the forums from restrictions of hardpoint sizes to disadvantage Heat/Cooldown also when PGI is changing hardpoints they might as well allow us to place the weapons where we want and not have to put a machinegun to move the AC10 up.