29 replies to this topic

[GreenHell]

Seriously, this whole thing could be more easily done by simply lowering the heat cap to 30.

Drop Heat Capacity to 30 for all mechs, and remove the capacity stat from heatsinks.
Modify DHS dissipation to somewhere between 0.2 and 0.3 (I personally vote for 0.25).

That's it guys. That's the solution.

Big alphas? Can't possibly be any higher than current alphas, and you can't KEEP on doing them. You get one big alpha and that's it, you're sitting there cooling off from 98%. When most weapons have between 2 and 4 second cooldowns, you'll be waiting around sometimes as long as twice that time to clear the heat you just generated (if you alpha'd).

The thing is, you can still alpha. The system doesn't place weird contrived penalties on you for firing an alpha. You simply put yourself at a higher heat by the very nature of firing everything at once (as it should be), but you have the option of doing it! OMG OPTIONS!?!?!

Firing in chain or group fire will allow for more DPS, because heat will be going down over a longer period of time. Meanwhile, alphas will need to cool off after every shot, lowering their DPS. You have a choice of firing your big alpha, or firing for more DPS! OMG, OPTIONS!!!

If you're worried about large mechs having problems, then don't worry! More DHS means more dissipation than before! Heavy laser builds might seem nerfed, but don't forget that your DHS are clearing heat even as you fire those lasers! This means that with more DHS, you can actually regain those big alphas, if you're willing to spend the tonnage on DHS to do it. Even more options?!?!

The best part is, it's SO SIMPLE, and IT MAKES SENSE! Change a few values and BOOM, DONE! Afterwards, you can balance weapons simply by raising or lowering their heat little by little. A half point here, a full point there. Or, raise / lower the dissipation by a tiny ammount. Not liking how mechs feel at 0.25? Try 0.26! It's so easy!!!

Here, I'll even put together a little loadout and "boat" tester for you in a google spreadsheet. Change the values and play around a little with it. You might be surprised at what you find!
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

Never forget, the best solutions are often the simplest ones!

Edited by GreenHell, 29 August 2016 - 07:49 PM.

[AnTi90d]

I'd like to see a double-time tabletop system.. turning the 10 second tabletop turn into a 5 second MWO turn.

30 heat cap.

No extra heat cap from heat sinks or skills.

5 second cooldown on all weapons, UACs can fire their 2nd shot 2.5 seconds after the first.

0.2 heat removed per second for SHS, 0.4 for DHS.

Random chance for ammunition explosions after 100% heat.

Higher than current chance for ammunition explosions from critical hits.

Reduced mech movement by 25% at half full heat.. 50% at 3/4 full heat.

Now, that's what I want to see in a PTS. TTK would be high.. weapon loadouts would be diverse.. and MWO would have more Battletech flavor.

[Spleenslitta]

I'd like a similar system that Anti describes. But let's say we get what you describe OP. I could live with it but there is one major problem.
What about ballistics and missiles? They produce far less heat so your idea would just lead to dual gauss / AC40 / 3-4x UAC5 builds all over the place.

How to prevent that?

[X O]

AnTi90d, on 29 August 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

I'd like to see a double-time tabletop system.. turning the 10 second tabletop turn into a 5 second MWO turn.

5 second cooldown on all weapons, UACs can fire their 2nd shot 2.5 seconds after the first.

So why should I carry an AC2 or AC5? You just favor big ballstics over small ones. What about small lasers and large?

Quote

Random chance for ammunition explosions after 100% heat.

Random Mechanics are not my favorite game mechanics, make a cap by 1XX% heat when you start to melt your internals and get ammo explosions.

Quote

Higher than current chance for ammunition explosions from critical hits.

Wont help, all Clans take case and the IS players still carry the ammo in legs and head. Most players avoid to focus the legs cause to much armor.

Quote

Now, that's what I want to see in a PTS. TTK would be high.. weapon loadouts would be diverse.. and MWO would have more Battletech flavor.

Why should be the weapon loadouts be diversed by your proposal? I think will just see large lasers and gaus rifles cause of the high weapon cooldowns and the 0 heat from the Gaus. Maybee clans will carry UAC 10 but thats it.

Edited by X O, 29 August 2016 - 11:54 PM.

[burning wisky]

Hallo i play Mechwarrior 2,3,4 ( when they came out ) and Battletech tabletop ( 20 years now )
I test the new Energy Draw, and i find no way to see it useful.
Why you do this ?... it makes no sense to me.
Enegy points ok , but why is it working with the DAMAGE ? You want to kill the Meta-build or hardcore laserboats ?
Give them the heat and penalty they have to deal with.
We are going a wrong way, because you make it really complicated.
And yes, Mechwarriors, we are running oure mechs really hot with no penalty at this time at the open server. 2 ore 3 Afpha Strike befor we overheating, that is too much.
Battletech rules are easy.
IDEAR

• 
  give us 2 points on the double heatsink back
  
• 
  headsink cooldown time is all your heatsinkpoints in 8-10 sec and make a scala going down like that we have now..
  
• 
  no Ghostheat, because you don't need them anymore
  
• 
  Penaltys if we overheat
  
• 
  Overrideshutdown button, with damage risk if you use them.
  
• 
  Anti-overheat-button ( press the button and you shut down at 100% heat and don't overheat / it is good for new player , i think )

for the example i use the Battletechrules.
Awesome
3 PPC = 3x 10 Heatpoints
speed max 54 kph
0 kph stand 0 Heatpoint
1- 35 kph walk 1 Heatpoint
36- 54 kph run 2 Heatpoint

The MECH have
18 single heatsinks ex. + 10 single heatsinkin the engine = 28 Cooldownpoints all 8-10 sec. Timeline
that mean that my mech can absorb 28 HEATPOINTS in 8-10 sec.
( 18 double heatsink ex. + 10 single heatsink in the engin ) = 28 Cooldownpoints = 100 % Heatscala + a Overheatscala with 30 more points, but be carefull if you need them, manage you cooldown or you get a penalty
Overheatscala
5 points = minus 5 % movemant and Torso slower
8 points = 10% chance to shutdown and Focus problens
12points = minus 10 % movemant and Torso slower
15points = 15% chance to shutdown and Focus problens
18points = minus 20 % movemant and Torso slower
21points = 35 % chance to shutdown and Focus problens
24points = minus 30 %movemant and Torso slower
27points = minus 40 %moveman and Torso slower
30points = 100% shutdown
SEE this in a Timeline not in rounds

If you run with the AWESOME and fire all 3 PPC ( Run 2 Heatpoints + ( 3xPPC ) 3 x 10 Heatpoints ) you have a heat of 32 Points ( Cooldownpoints 28 )... 32 Heatpoints – 28 Cooldownpoints = 4 you overheat a little bit with 4 points with a ALPHASHOOT. Nothing happends, but you have after 8-10 sec. 4 heatpoints to start with. Now you run and shoot a second ALFA STRIKE now you have 36 Heatpoints . 36 Heatpoints – 28 Cooldownpoints = 8 in the Overheat scala

5 points = minus 5 % movemant/ Torso slower
8 points = 10% chance to shutdown / Focus problens
Thats your penalty

Use the original Battletech rules and it works......
My idea is, if you need more enegie to fire your weapons, you get it from the engine and makes your movement and Torso twist slower.
The game getting more taktikal and everyplayer/ Mech have the same groundbase to work with.

[Taxxian]

I like other penalties than just damage while overheating, but other than that, this does not work.

You cant simply take tabletop rules, in tabletop you cant target components in an fps shooter you can!
And in Tabletop Clanmechs are supposed to be far superior in mwo they are not.

You also forget that in tabletop at the end of the round, all heatsinks do there work at once lower the heat big time and than penalties are calculated. In MWO that would mean you would immediately get all the penalties you would get 10 sec later in the tabletop, because heatsinks work continuously. So in a way heatsinks increase heat capacity in tabletop by what they would cool away in 10 sec...

What you suggest would make the game much slower, which may be good, but it would simply make everyone run around with big ACs and Gauss, because heat is much more of an issue.

[Dracol]

Lowering heat cap =1 heat gauss rifle will rule all.

Do y'all forget about this weapon or something? Cause evertime someone posts "lower heat cap would fix EVERYTHING", y'all never address the gauss.

In this lower heat cap utopia, what would you do to reign in gauss?

[Curccu]

X O, on 29 August 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

So why should I carry an AC2 or AC5? You just favor big ballstics over small ones. What about small lasers and large?

Well he wants more Battletech feel? both weapons are kinda bad in BT compared to their bigger siblings?

[Pelmeshek]

Dracol, on 30 August 2016 - 03:11 AM, said:

Lowering heat cap =1 heat gauss rifle will rule all.

Do y'all forget about this weapon or something? Cause evertime someone posts "lower heat cap would fix EVERYTHING", y'all never address the gauss.

In this lower heat cap utopia, what would you do to reign in gauss?

And what problem with gauss? He have charge, big CD and 90% chance to explode. And how many mech u know who can carry 2 and more gauss? Plus u cant shoot with 3-4 gausses, only with 2 at once.

[Pelmeshek]

Also idea with heat cap like a TT BT really nice, i try to create something similar too but found a few problems:
1) Everything that can carry a lot of ballistics is still OP. Probable solutions:
-The increase in CD - drawdown dps, people will stop using ballistics;
-The decrease in velocity is a viable idea, but need to check the reality at the client;
-Cuts ammo/t- reducing potential damage per ton >the larger requirement to the skill, need to check the reality at the client;
-The increase of heating - it is reasonable only for certain types of ballistics.
2) The missle brawlers and LRM boats become too OP, possible solutions:
-increase in heat for missle weapons- it is reasonable for mechs with 3-4 or more hardpoints, those 1-2 will not notice the difference;
-reduction of ammo/t- it is reasonable for SRM and especially for LRM, IMHO around 100 to 75 and from 180 to 120 missiles per ton.
3) Some mechs on energy from IS(refers to the lights) when you use small energy weapons better then clan, the probable solution:
-increase heat IS small/smallpulse be the easiest solution, it is necessary to check on the client.
P.S. I apologize for possible mistakes in English, this language is not my native.

Edited by Pelmeshek, 30 August 2016 - 04:04 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

You also forget that in tabletop at the end of the round, all heatsinks do there work at once lower the heat big time and than penalties are calculated. In MWO that would mean you would immediately get all the penalties you would get 10 sec later in the tabletop, because heatsinks work continuously. So in a way heatsinks increase heat capacity in tabletop by what they would cool away in 10 sec...

Just to note, that BT 10sec turn was simply a means to simulate what was happening in that 10 secs, broken up into phases for ease of play. So weapons fired during a round did not mean that all those weapons were fired at one time. Weapon groupings (TIC - Target Interlock Circuitry) were not used until the Solaris boardgame, which broke the game down to 2.5 secs and had weapon cooldowns (weapon delays). And in Solaris you could not fire any number of weapons, you could fire one weapon, or fire one TIC, or dont fire any weapons and change up 1 of 3 TIC's weapon load.

As for heat being generated, it was a harsh mistress in Solaris, but even in the basic BT game in real time it fluctuated lots but again, the game was broken up into three basic phases: Movement, Combat, Heat. To do anything else would have made the game complicated while controlling a lance of mechs, likely why Solaris did not fare so well as it was aimed at mech on mech combat, broken down into 2.5sec turns.

[Tiantara]

- And everyone still forgot about Map Temperature. Going by that idea many mech would run on 20 points of heat permanently. That reminds me day when Terra Therma comes to game. Hot mech pilots just go suicide to go another map where can barely play or wait for Frozen City. What you suggest make them do so again. More of it. Did you ever research champion, hero mech with stock builds? What first impression of new player would be, when just purchased mech for $$ without hard work under build got to blow after 2nd shot? No, really - you want to bay mech which die in seconds or not able to fight? Just ask yourself that question before make mechanic on game based on micro-transaction and with mech-pack for real money!
Even if game was based on subscription that strict rules wont work because always here would be players who don't know about builds, rules, dices, tables and who just want take fun piloting mech and in time understand game further with all tactics and tricks. Not take mech, blow up and go away.
Only my interest in mech and lucky purchasing catapult and atlas make me stay in game from 2012 till now. But what about others?

Edited by Tiantara, 30 August 2016 - 04:40 AM.

[Night Thastus]

The Heat Capacity of any given 'Mech in the game is already 30. It's just that heat-sinks add to this.

[Appuagab]

I guess I should just leave this wonderful video here.

[Pjwned]

This post I made a while ago is very relevant.

Pjwned, on 03 March 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

In the past I've agreed with the idea of lowering the heat threshold and increasing dissipation in order to add a real heat scale, but the problem with doing this strictly without first changing things up is that heat generation is handled a lot differently in MWO than it is in TT.

Let's take a stock Warhawk for example. It has 4 C-ER PPCs equipped, and assuming it starts at 0 heat and there aren't other heat penalties applied (moving, engine damage, whatever else) it can fire those 4 ER PPCs once and not shut down because it will be left with 20 (out of 30) heat due to having 20 DHS which dissipates 40 heat. Of course, it needs to deal with various penalties for the heat going that high, and it can't fire very many weapons next turn without some real problems occurring, but at least it can do that and not shut down let alone be egregiously over the heat cap.

In MWO however, If you fire those 4 C-ER PPCs at once with a heat cap of 30, your mech shuts down instantly because all of a sudden you deal with generating 60 heat at once, and if there was also a real heat scale with actual penalties for having too much heat then it would be even worse. This is obviously drastically different from TT and makes it very punishing to fire high heat weapons, i.e energy weapons.

If we want to change the heat scale in MWO and reduce the heat cap to 30 to be more like TT then we need to also change heat generation to be more like TT, such as by making weapons generate heat over a period of time rather than instantly or by changing how heatsinks behave to make them store heat (somewhat like increasing heat capacity but not quite the same) or whatever other solution there might be.

The issue I bring up here is not something to be ignored.

[Kuritaclan]

Pjwned, on 30 August 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

This post I made a while ago is very relevant.

Pjwned, on 03 March 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

In the past I've agreed with the idea of lowering the heat threshold and increasing dissipation in order to add a real heat scale, but the problem with doing this strictly without first changing things up is that heat generation is handled a lot differently in MWO than it is in TT.

Let's take a stock Warhawk for example. It has 4 C-ER PPCs equipped, and assuming it starts at 0 heat and there aren't other heat penalties applied (moving, engine damage, whatever else) it can fire those 4 ER PPCs once and not shut down because it will be left with 20 (out of 30) heat due to having 20 DHS which dissipates 40 heat. Of course, it needs to deal with various penalties for the heat going that high, and it can't fire very many weapons next turn without some real problems occurring, but at least it can do that and not shut down let alone be egregiously over the heat cap.

In MWO however, If you fire those 4 C-ER PPCs at once with a heat cap of 30, your mech shuts down instantly because all of a sudden you deal with generating 60 heat at once, and if there was also a real heat scale with actual penalties for having too much heat then it would be even worse. This is obviously drastically different from TT and makes it very punishing to fire high heat weapons, i.e energy weapons.

If we want to change the heat scale in MWO and reduce the heat cap to 30 to be more like TT then we need to also change heat generation to be more like TT, such as by making weapons generate heat over a period of time rather than instantly or by changing how heatsinks behave to make them store heat (somewhat like increasing heat capacity but not quite the same) or whatever other solution there might be.

The issue I bring up here is not something to be ignored.

QFT.

Certain "Stock Builds" out of the Battletech Universe are not usable at all in the way they are set up. Another thing would be the Annihlator with 3 Gauss. There are mechs that come by factory design as boat.

So what to do with those mechs? Throw bricks in their way or is pgi actually willing to come up with a system that works for all and balance it out. What about couldown penalty?! The energy draw system would certainly help to build a "charge cycle".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 30 August 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

This post I made a while ago is very relevant.



The issue I bring up here is not something to be ignored.

The easiest way would be one which was used in MW4, heat spread. High heat weapons didn't generate all of their heat when fired, but instead only generated 50% and generated the rest of the heat over a certain period of time (at most like 3 seconds). Or make the heat cap more lenient so that energy boats have more wiggle room since anyone expecting heat neutral builds with this sort of change is out of their minds, which means dissipation rates should not be going up, the only change should be regarding heat capacity and Gauss actually getting heat instead of several bandaids.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 August 2016 - 08:26 AM.

[JC Daxion]

and if they lower heat to 30.. say.. then alpha's are not an option.. I personally don't like it not being an option.. I want alphas! i also want them to have consequences.

[HUBA]

I'm sure you don't want to hear it but there have to be some sort of penalty to prevent the grouping of too many weapons even your system is doing it, what happens when you reach the heat cap? But when weapons do the same heat when in single fire or in a big group then the big group will always be more effective unless you introduce a mechanic that make them less effective or more expensive. At the end heat is the easiest way to do it. If 1 PPC make 10 heat and 2 PPC make 25 then there is a clear trade of between using one at the time and able to get more shots out or using both and get a better "punch".

In my opinion the penalty has to be so strong that a player tend to use as less weapons as possible but should be able to use more if needed.

[burning wisky]

@ Taxxian
I the tabletop game ,they have to cooldow at the last turne, because it is a tabletop game. they have to change the overheat point a bit and all is good, no ghostheat, and small changes.
WE HAVE A GOOD WORKING SYSTEM NOW, BUT WE OVERHEAT A LITTLEBITE TO LATE AND GET NO PENALTY FOR THAT. I don 't want a new system, what is more useless than what we have now.

Edited by burning wisky, 30 August 2016 - 12:52 PM.