82 replies to this topic

[Marquis De Lafayette]

After reading many months of posts on the topic of LT and scouting I submit these in as my take on the (mostly) common truism's heard in the scouting/LT "debate". They seem to fall in 3 categories and 90% of what is said on these forums seems to be in line with all this. I actually think most of the player base would agree with these... (Watch me be wrong)

---
On Unit vs. PUG play (or merely newer, inexperienced players)... In relation to LT and Scouting:

-Experienced FW players and Organized units can do ok against toned-down LT and in scouting mode running IS mechs vs. clan streakcrows.

-If all FW players were experienced and/or in good units this wouldn't be a problem or at least the problem would less much lessened.

-new players to FW do not start out with the experience (even if they are QP pros) to deal with this particular mode or game mechanic effectively. Thus, they will initially do poorly at least until they gain sufficient experience in FW.

-Inexperienced FW players scouting on the IS side is where this is especially damaging. New clan players struggle as well in scouting against experienced IS teams. However, they can more quickly improve results by running the streakcrow, which is effective against IS opponents of similar experience and coordination levels.

-FW (baring its total collapse) will always have new and inexperienced players coming into the scouting and invasion game modes. Thus, they will face these challenges as long as the challenges continue to exist.

-FW needs new players to survive as a viable game mode. Bleeding experienced players is inevitable and while it can perhaps be slowed, on-boarding new players is necessary to FW's survival

-Newer players are more likely to keep playing FW (and eventually join a unit) if they have even a modest level of initial success or at minimum feel a hope of achieving such a level. Getting continually nuked does not breed such a hope.

On Scouting mode:

-Inexperienced IS players often struggle against 4 55-ton streakcrows as they generally will lack the ability to coordinate (focus fire, etc) with the other 3 pilots fast enough to not get picked apart.

-The IS has no such mech (like the Clan Streakcrow build) that can help newer players improve results as quickly against similarly skilled (and equally inexperienced) opponents.

-As the scouting game mode cannot be handled as well by newer FW players of one side (IS) and this effects the balance of the game as a whole. IS suffers a greater handicap from their less experienced players, loses scouting and thus the Clans gain long tom support.
.
Long Tom:

-Inexperienced (all new players start this way) FW players will not do well against LT as they do not know how to counter or mitigate the effects of it.

-Clans generally do not have to face LT (as they win the majority of scouting battles), so while newer clan players do poorly against LT, it is rarer that they face it. Even during events where LT becomes a bigger issue.

-one side gaining Long Tom empties queues on the other side.

-Anything that empties queues (for whatever reason... Real... Perceived... Doesn't matter) is bad for the game as a whole.

-any mode/mechanic (Scouting to the Long Tom level) whose success depends on a "gentleman's agreement" on one side not doing it (btw: sincere thanks to the Clan folks who advocated for this!) is by definition "problematic".

[Deathlike]

DarklightCA, on 01 September 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

Yes I play with a effective unit. Who has had no problems attacking planets with long tom on it because we understood how it operated and how to negate it's effect. Even how to turn that mechanic around on it's own team. That was when LT was overpowered. I bet nobody here has actually played against the last updated long tom.

It's the same stupid thing as skill scrows in scout mode. Most people can't deal with them and lose to them because they never bother to learn how to counter anything when in reality they are stupid easy to beat. Does that mean skill scrows are a broken build, overpowered? No.

You are right though, there is no debate about long tom because you keep confusing the original version of it when it incorrectly applied too much damage to components to a version nobody has actually tested out.

It isn't as simple as that.

When it comes to Skillcrows and the like, assuming PUGs - you have to expect them to not understand the counters. If they are ever taught this (which they are likely won't be unless they are in a unit), then it becomes much easier to understand.

Even in the Long Tom situation though, you can still screw it up easily. It doesn't take much for players to "bunch up" instead of scatter, even when told to scatter. You also have to have a dropdeck prepped for some of it. It's just not a trivial matter to deal with.

The degree of difficulty to mitigate Long Tom far outweighs the degree of difficulty of dealing with Streakcrows. They are not even in the same boat (although bad players may lump them together).

It's similar to dealing with airstrikes and arties... when they are launched behind you. Even if you find the signal, it's too late. While the payload of the arty+airstrikes aren't as insane as the Long Tom, the damage has been done. There's no HUD icon on the minimap to help you out either... even if you kinda know relatively where the bomb is going to drop (assuming the players understand the algorithm used to position it).


It's simply not as trivial as you'd think, especially when you have to train players that either aren't regularly exposed to it outside of those in events.

[MischiefSC]

DarklightCA, on 01 September 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

Yes I play with a effective unit. Who has had no problems attacking planets with long tom on it because we understood how it operated and how to negate it's effect. Even how to turn that mechanic around on it's own team. That was when LT was overpowered. I bet nobody here has actually played against the last updated long tom.

It's the same stupid thing as skill scrows in scout mode. Most people can't deal with them and lose to them because they never bother to learn how to counter anything when in reality they are stupid easy to beat. Does that mean skill scrows are a broken build, overpowered? No.

You are right though, there is no debate about long tom because you keep confusing the original version of it when it incorrectly applied too much damage to components to a version nobody has actually tested out.

I've played both with and against LT, for several matches, since the update. We had another LT use stretch after the change, each time in fact (there have been 3) which voided the population and we all agreed to just not scout so we can actually play FW.

You keep confusing how you deal with and play the game with how everyone else does. Same with Skillcrows. My Shad kills a skillcrow before it gets a second shot off. I fear and respect the Nova and if it gets to me before I can heat cap him with Flamers I'm going to have a bad day. Pulse Scrow is dangerous, ACH in the right hands is respectable. A single skillcrow in a mixed group is still dangerous though.

However in the vast majority of matches it's pugs who can't aim for ****. So the skillcrow is a huge advantage.

Same thing with LT. I don't want it on my side - I don't want it, don't need it, I want to do my own damage and my own kills. I do not want or need LT to carry me. I've played against it a couple of times but it's stupid to do so- better off flooding scout queue. Unless your group doesn't want to play scouting in which case you just go play ARK/7DTD/whatever. Which is usually what happens.

Your argument is essentially that everyone should play FW in a skilled coordinated group and enjoy scouting as much as invasion and otherwise play FW sort of like a job - you do what gets the job done.

That's completely divorced from the reality of who plays and how. It's like saying we would have world peace if everyone just behaved like mature and responsible adults.

Any argument about LT being fine if people just X is inherently flawed. You can control the stats of LT or remove it from the game. You can not control how players respond to it.

So the discussion on what to do can not be "players should X in response to LT". It has to be "Given than players do Y, LT needs to be X (killed with nuclear fire as a bad design choice)".