22 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

I'm just going to keep it short & simple here.

1) Energy draw is yet another stupid band-aid fix to cover up the real issue of convergence. Fix the perfect convergence at all times and we won't need stupid **** like energy draw. What I mean by fixing convergence is to tone down the perfect convergence we have at all times (because it obviously causes big problems) yet also not completely dismantle convergence either; convergence based on target locks is a good way to go to accomplish this.

2) Global weapon cooldown increase is also another stupid band-aid fix that needs to be fixed by reworking quirks to not be a sloppy, unbalanced mess pile of ****. Weapon modules also need to be addressed as well by not making them 100% power creep, and while that is partially addressed on the PTS by reducing cooldown module efficacy, it's still not enough because the modules are still pure power creep.

On top of the egregious weapon quirks on so many mechs, structure and even agility quirks allow players to play extremely recklessly (more so than should be possible) and live when their mech should have otherwise been destroyed. A great example of this is massive torso structure quirks allowing Inner Sphere pilots to equip XL engines on their mech without fear of being a glass cannon because magic space jesus quirks are there to save them, and of course with all that extra weight saved that means more room for weapons and such which is extremely counterproductive to lowering TTK; go look at how often you see XL engines on these structure quirked mechs now and you'll find that I'm right.

Fix this stupid **** first before you do other stupid **** like global weapon cooldown nerfs.

I don't expect to be heard or listened to by PGI's incompetent management, which is why I'm not making a huge topic, and for that matter I'm not going to get into any in-depth discussions here.

Edited by Pjwned, 01 September 2016 - 04:59 PM.

[Taxxian]

So you think PGI is stupid and incompetent and you seem to know it all better, this is in no way a promising start of an argument...

1) What exactly will convergence fix? Adding convergence will simply crate a new kind of imbalance which can hardly be influenced by PGI because the Mechs layout is as it is. The Executioner will be over the top with its 7 Energy HP in one arm, you can forget about ever piloting a BlackKnight again with its HPs all over the place... Energy Draw is completely under PGIs control and therefore a much better tool for achieving balance.

2) Global Weapon cooldown does not fix balance thats right, but its not meant to... its meant to make the game slower, nothing else.

Your critics on quirks is also correct, but you already see quirks disappearing an getting smaller all over the place, Energy Draw will make even more of them redundant. So the problem is not only recognized by PGI but it is obviously already beeing adressed.

[Mystere]

Taxxian, on 01 September 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

The Executioner will be over the top with its 7 Energy HP in one arm ...

Shoot off arm, end of problem. It's a risk vs. reward thing.

Edited by Mystere, 01 September 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[Dracol]

Mystere, on 01 September 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Shoot off arm, end of problem. It's a risk vs. reward thing.

But...um... the point of removing convergence would be to remove the ability to place shots accurately on the desired component. To do what you suggest, one would need to use an Executioner themsleves, or another mech that has grouped hard points, ie the nova.

[Reno Blade]

While convergence is all nice and good, the effect is still the same.

e.g.
Convergence:
If you shoot lot of weapons together they will spread all over...
- (a volley to s single spot)
will turn into
= (multiple hit locations)

GH/ED:
You space your shots because of heat penalties, so you will hit all over the place...
- (a volley to s single spot)
will turn into
- - - (smaller volleys spread over time)

it's just spread over time instead of instantly with GH/ED
So Alphas will turn into "daka" style (DoT) with GH/ED but convergence would turn Alphas into "spread".

[Mystere]

Dracol, on 01 September 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

But...um... the point of removing convergence would be to remove the ability to place shots accurately on the desired component. To do what you suggest, one would need to use an Executioner themsleves, or another mech that has grouped hard points, ie the nova.

That's what big ballistics and PPCs are for. <shrugs>

[1453 R]

[Pjwned]

Taxxian, on 01 September 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

1) What exactly will convergence fix? Adding convergence will simply crate a new kind of imbalance which can hardly be influenced by PGI because the Mechs layout is as it is. The Executioner will be over the top with its 7 Energy HP in one arm, you can forget about ever piloting a BlackKnight again with its HPs all over the place... Energy Draw is completely under PGIs control and therefore a much better tool for achieving balance.

I guess by "fixing" perfect convergence I should have also briefly mentioned that it's very important that it not be completely dismantled. Any system that didn't allow players to retain their perfect convergence under reasonable conditions would be taking it too far because it is important to hit what you're aiming at; just not perfectly at all times because it obviously causes problems--oh and as far as the Executioner just shoot off its damn arm or something like Mystere astutely said already.

I am personally a big advocate of convergence based on target locks which would perfectly accomplish the goal of toning down but not dismantling convergence.

Quote

2) Global Weapon cooldown does not fix balance thats right, but its not meant to... its meant to make the game slower, nothing else.

That's not needed before making other obvious changes such as quirk balancing & module balancing like I said and also weapon balancing which I didn't mention here but also needs to be done.

Quote

Your critics on quirks is also correct, but you already see quirks disappearing an getting smaller all over the place, Energy Draw will make even more of them redundant. So the problem is not only recognized by PGI but it is obviously already beeing adressed.

I'm not seeing quirks being reduced to the extent that they need to be on the PTS so no I don't think it's obviously being addressed already.

Dracol, on 01 September 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

But...um... the point of removing convergence would be to remove the ability to place shots accurately on the desired component. To do what you suggest, one would need to use an Executioner themsleves, or another mech that has grouped hard points, ie the nova.

The goal isn't to remove that ability completely.

Reno Blade, on 01 September 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

While convergence is all nice and good, the effect is still the same.

e.g.
Convergence:
If you shoot lot of weapons together they will spread all over...
- (a volley to s single spot)
will turn into
= (multiple hit locations)

Going to stop you there because that's a crappy way of handling the issue. It would be marginally better than both ghost heat and energy draw, yeah, but the goal is to not have some stupid system where you fired "too many" weapons at once and suffer a penalty for it.

[1453 R]

The penalty for firing "too many weapons", in the game you and Mystere and the rest want to play for some alien reason no one else can comprehend, is "miss with all of them, at all times." With "Too many weapons" being classified as two or more, of any size, type, or purpose.

No. Thank. You.

Edited by 1453 R, 01 September 2016 - 01:31 PM.

[Pjwned]

1453 R, on 01 September 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

The penalty for firing "too many weapons", in the game you and Mystere and the rest want to play for some alien reason no one else can comprehend, is "miss with all of them, at all times." With "Too many weapons" being classified as two or more, of any size, type, or purpose.

No. Thank. You.

I get that you're on a crusade against anybody who dares touch your precious convergence, but that's pretty clearly not the goal as I've already said.

[1453 R]

Pjwned, on 01 September 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I get that you're on a crusade against anybody who dares touch your precious convergence, but that's pretty clearly not the goal as I've already said.

Then what is the goal?

Currently, the default behavior in MWO is "hit what you aim at". Deconvergence guys like Mystere want to change the default behavior of MWO to "don't hit what you aim at".

Goal seems pretty clear-cut to me, really. Substitute 'not hitting' for 'hitting', because hitting your mark apparently irreparably breaks MWO.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 01 September 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

The penalty for firing "too many weapons", in the game you and Mystere and the rest want to play for some alien reason no one else can comprehend, is "miss with all of them, at all times." With "Too many weapons" being classified as two or more, of any size, type, or purpose.

No. Thank. You.

If you are totally incapable of hitting a target via a group of weapons with a 100% predictable pattern, that's on you and no one else.

And by the way, in a fixed, manual, or "convergence on lock" system, you can still hit a target with all weapons 100% of the time. You just have to know how to do it. But if you don't, that's not our problem. It's yours and yours alone.

<In the end, those who can will. Those who can't will run to the game forums.>

Edited by Mystere, 01 September 2016 - 03:04 PM.

[Pjwned]

1453 R, on 01 September 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Then what is the goal?

Currently, the default behavior in MWO is "hit what you aim at". Deconvergence guys like Mystere want to change the default behavior of MWO to "don't hit what you aim at".

Goal seems pretty clear-cut to me, really. Substitute 'not hitting' for 'hitting', because hitting your mark apparently irreparably breaks MWO.

The goal is to not have all of your weapons be able to focus on 1 point at all times because that causes obvious problems, and the solution is to have something where your shots might land somewhat narrow/wide of your crosshair unless you, for example, acquire a target lock and then retain perfect convergence as it is now.

The goal has been made clear numerous times.

[ScarecrowES]

You tricked me into reading another thread about convergence! Well played, sir. Well played.

[Pjwned]

ScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

You tricked me into reading another thread about convergence! Well played, sir. Well played.

I fixed it for you.

[MadcatX]

Pjwned, on 01 September 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

I fixed it for you.

"I'm not going to get into any in-depth discussions here."

Wish I had bet money on that statement being false.

[Pjwned]

MadcatX, on 01 September 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

"I'm not going to get into any in-depth discussions here."

Wish I had bet money on that statement being false.

Thanks mr. shitpost, good to know that your definition of "in-depth" is being about as deep as a drop of water on the ground.

[MadcatX]

Pjwned, on 01 September 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

Thanks mr. shitpost, good to know that your definition of "in-depth" is being about as deep as a drop of water on the ground.

When it comes to "in-depth discussions about convergence", a mechanic that will be implemented somewhere around never, any conversation about it is about as a deep as a drop of water. Even if there is merit and I've seen some good ideas pop up over the past couple years in it's regards, we're heading towards the ED system.

Only thing we can do is test ED and give feedback.

[Mystere]

MadcatX, on 01 September 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

When it comes to "in-depth discussions about convergence", a mechanic that will be implemented somewhere around never, any conversation about it is about as a deep as a drop of water. Even if there is merit and I've seen some good ideas pop up over the past couple years in it's regards, we're heading towards the ED system.

Only thing we can do is test ED and give feedback.

Well, as of PTS3, ED just became more complicated that GH. That does not bode well at all.

[MadcatX]

Mystere, on 01 September 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

Well, as of PTS3, ED just became more complicated that GH. That does not bode well at all.

I can agree with that, it'll take some time to adjust to it when it goes live that's for sure.