27 replies to this topic

[DjPush]

Am I the only that is noticing the changes in the PTS are just going to revert the game back to apocalyptic pop tart days?

No charge to the gauss rifle and now clan ERPPC do 15 pinpoint damage instead of spreading 10 and 5. I was a major proponant of the system change. However, these changes will turn the game back into PPC Gauss poptart games again (so I think, not actual fact). I don't approve and am slightly concerned as to why these changes are being tested?

Does anyone else share this concern or are people advocating for this type of game play?

Any reason given by PGI why they are testing these specific changes?

Edited by The Potatoe Whisperer, 04 September 2016 - 01:46 PM.

[RestosIII]

I love Gauss and PPCs. But I honestly think they should have cooldowns in the 7-8 second range, personally. Make them proper sniper weaponry that takes awhile to reload.

[Red Shrike]

I still feel it's a bandaid that shouldn't have been needed in the first place.

[DjPush]

RestosIII, on 04 September 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

I love Gauss and PPCs. But I honestly think they should have cooldowns in the 7-8 second range, personally. Make them proper sniper weaponry that takes awhile to reload.

I think the cool down time of the PPC was increased to 6s in the PTS. However, that change is nothing. You still have 45PPD that has some of the highest projectile speeds in the game. They will need to slow one or the other down drastically to make me less concerned. At least by half.

[RestosIII]

The Potatoe Whisperer, on 04 September 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

I think the cool down time of the PPC was increased to 6s in the PTS. However, that change is nothing. You still have 45PPD that has some of the highest projectile speeds in the game. They will need to slow one or the other down drastically to make me less concerned. At least by half.

'still waiting for a proper heat system and non-pinpoint everything'

[AnTi90d]

Ghost heat penalizes boating one weapon.

Energy draw penalizes any alphastrike over 30 damage.

Since all weapons are penalized, boating will return..
Assault brawlers won't be able to alphastrike and then twist, so RIP: Brawling 2012-2016..
Without brawlers, people will be able to peek/poke snipe with impunity..

So, yeah.. it does seem that Energy Draw will bring about two teams sniping and then cooling off behind terrain.. with no brawlers to charge their position.

This mechanic will make MWO games less fun and take the game further away from Battletech.

GG:PGI:WP

[RestosIII]

AnTi90d, on 04 September 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Ghost heat penalizes boating one weapon.

Energy draw penalizes any alphastrike over 30 damage.

Since all weapons are penalized, boating will return..
Assault brawlers won't be able to alphastrike and then twist, so RIP: Brawling 2012-2016..
Without brawlers, people will be able to peek/poke snipe with impunity..

So, yeah.. it does seem that Energy Draw will bring about two teams sniping and then cooling off behind terrain.. with no brawlers to charge their position.

This mechanic will make MWO games less fun and take the game further away from Battletech.

GG:PGI:WP

Oh, we're putting up Star Trek memes?
Well, a lot of people have been interrupting my battles of zellbrigen in quick play matches.

[Wintersdark]

The Potatoe Whisperer, on 04 September 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Am I the only that is noticing the changes in the PTS are just going to revert the game back to apocalyptic pop tart days?

No charge to the gauss rifle and now clan ERPPC do 15 pinpoint damage instead of spreading 10 and 5. I was a major proponant of the system change. However, these changes will turn the game back into PPC Gauss poptart games again (so I think, not actual fact). I don't approve and am slightly concerned as to why these changes are being tested?

Does anyone else share this concern or are people advocating for this type of game play?

Any reason given by PGI why they are testing these specific changes?

PGI has given reasons for all the things they're testing. Which in particular are you interested in?

Poptarts? No. That's silly; that's why we have HoverJets now. Poptarting is limited to some mediums and maybe some lights, definitely nothing pushing 45 damage PPFLD alphas.

During the poptart meta, PPC's where vastly faster (making it way easier to get good shots), we didn't have JJ shake, we got way more lift of JJ's, PPC's had much shorter cooldowns.

Poptarts in PTS3 are much less dangerous than their Poptart Meta cousins. Even if you run a poptart team, at 6-7 second cooldowns on the PPC's/ERPPC's/Gauss, you can push them and crush them with ease. In the Poptart Meta days, those mechs where still very effective at close range as they had roughly half the cooldown they do now (and lower PPC heat).

[Wintersdark]

AnTi90d, on 04 September 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Ghost heat penalizes boating one weapon.

Energy draw penalizes any alphastrike over 30 damage.

No. Energy draw penalizes any alpha strike drawing over 30 energy. These two things are different.

Quote

Since all weapons are penalized, boating will return..

Maybe. Boating was never a problem. Heavy "superweapon" boated strikes where a problem. ED prevents that.

Quote

Assault brawlers won't be able to alphastrike and then twist, so RIP: Brawling 2012-2016..
Without brawlers, people will be able to peek/poke snipe with impunity..

You still strike+twist+strike+twist, brawlers don't have to stare, and on the PTS brawlers have been very effective. Aside from really heavy brawlers, the lower ED on brawling weapons allows brawlers to strike+twist with MUCH heavier strikes than other mechs can manage.

Brawling is extremely effective on the PTS.

Methinks you've built this ignorant narrative in your head devoid of any actual experience and simply repeat it without ever challenging it.

Quote

So, yeah.. it does seem that Energy Draw will bring about two teams sniping and then cooling off behind terrain.. with no brawlers to charge their position.

Wait, you think that snipers with 30 damage 7 second cooldown weapons won't be rushed by brawlers able to alpha 40+ damage without triggering ED penalties every ~3 seconds?

Dude.

[roboPrancer]

Wouldn't increasing the cooldowns just make poptarting/poking the most viable option though? Because increased cooldown would just make them less useful in brawling or support fire. Cooldown adjustment isn't the way to balance that kind of thing.

Really i dont understand why they would even want to get rid of the gauss charge, its kinda cool. 15 PPFLD PPC's though, not very cool.

[RestosIII]

roboPrancer, on 04 September 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Wouldn't increasing the cooldowns just make poptarting/poking the most viable option though? Because increased cooldown would just make them less useful in brawling or support fire. Cooldown adjustment isn't the way to balance that kind of thing.

Really i dont understand why they would even want to get rid of the gauss charge, its kinda cool. 15 PPFLD PPC's though, not very cool.

Except PPCs and Gauss were never designed with brawling in mind? And I'm a huge fan of the Gauss charge being removed. 15 PPFLD PPCs I can pass on. I actually prefer the splash.

[El Bandito]

Wintersdark, on 04 September 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

No. Energy draw penalizes any alpha strike drawing over 30 energy. These two things are different. Maybe. Boating was never a problem. Heavy "superweapon" boated strikes where a problem. ED prevents that. You still strike+twist+strike+twist, brawlers don't have to stare, and on the PTS brawlers have been very effective. Aside from really heavy brawlers, the lower ED on brawling weapons allows brawlers to strike+twist with MUCH heavier strikes than other mechs can manage. Brawling is extremely effective on the PTS. Methinks you've built this ignorant narrative in your head devoid of any actual experience and simply repeat it without ever challenging it. Wait, you think that snipers with 30 damage 7 second cooldown weapons won't be rushed by brawlers able to alpha 40+ damage without triggering ED penalties every ~3 seconds? Dude.

TBF, PTS is done in a 4v4 environment, where the focus fire TTK is low, which allowed more brawling to happen. I do not think 12v12 will play out the same.

[LordKnightFandragon]

When did PGI increase ERPPC dmg to 15? I see HEAT increased to 15, up from 14, but no dmg....did I miss a more recent PTS change log?

[El Bandito]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 September 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

When did PGI increase ERPPC dmg to 15? I see HEAT increased to 15, up from 14, but no dmg....did I miss a more recent PTS change log?

Yes you did. In PTS3, CERPPCs are now 15 damage PPFLD, for better or for worse.

[RestosIII]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 September 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

When did PGI increase ERPPC dmg to 15? I see HEAT increased to 15, up from 14, but no dmg....did I miss a more recent PTS change log?

Yeah, PTS 3 has 15 damage C-ERPPC because they removed the splash damage.

Edit: Jinx.

Edited by RestosIII, 04 September 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

El Bandito, on 04 September 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

TBF, PTS is done in a 4v4 environment, where the focus fire TTK is low, which allowed more brawling to happen. I do not think 12v12 will play out the same.

I am interested to see how 12v12 will play out.

The real problem is to differentiate player action and influence and the effect of ED

[LordKnightFandragon]

I was trying to log into the PTS yesterday and it instantly crashed back to desktop, is it broke or something?

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 04 September 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

TBF, PTS is done in a 4v4 environment, where the focus fire TTK is low, which allowed more brawling to happen. I do not think 12v12 will play out the same.

Brawling is fundamentally the same on the pts and live. It actually doesn't impact brawlers much at all, except the very hittiest of the lot.

You don't need more face time, you can be constantly twisting. But take pts to 12v12, and you have brawlers able to alpha but ranged mechs unable to do so. 1v1 brawlers *crush* sniper type mechs, absolutely destroy them. Very high DPS, way harder punches, better heat efficiency.

Dakka is a strong defense against brawlers, but by its nature spreads damage a lot as well (making it easier to weather on approach) and is much less effective on pts vs. live.

Closing the distance, as you well know on our maps is pretty trivial. On basically all of them there's covered approaches to get quite close.


What's happening here is people keep looking at brawlers and thinking they're losing anything, when most are literally unaffected by the pts changes, and those that are affected are only minorly impacted. Having to fire SRM's then an ac20 doesn't hurt them, it's no more face time, it doesn't require the brawler to stop twisting at all. Twist+fire+twist+fire..... And then they compare this to live. But that's not what's happening.

But yeah, while AC20 brawlers have that to deal with (still no staring time mind you) LBX/SRM brawlers don't. They're perfectly capable of dropping much heavier alphas than those they're fighting.

[El Bandito]

Wintersdark, on 04 September 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

Brawling is fundamentally the same on the pts and live. It actually doesn't impact brawlers much at all, except the very hittiest of the lot.

You don't need more face time, you can be constantly twisting. But take pts to 12v12, and you have brawlers able to alpha but ranged mechs unable to do so. 1v1 brawlers *crush* sniper type mechs, absolutely destroy them. Very high DPS, way harder punches, better heat efficiency.

Dakka is a strong defense against brawlers, but by its nature spreads damage a lot as well (making it easier to weather on approach) and is much less effective on pts vs. live.

Closing the distance, as you well know on our maps is pretty trivial. On basically all of them there's covered approaches to get quite close.

That maybe in an organized play, but I have lived and breathed solo-q since the beginning and I know how selfishness of the pugs encourages long distance fights, whenever such meta rears its head. Nothing makes a pug retreat and burrow its face in the sand faster than a 30-45 PPFLD turning its torso armor orange. Multiply that by up to 12 mechs per side, and...

Edited by El Bandito, 04 September 2016 - 07:45 PM.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 04 September 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

That maybe in an organized play, but I have lived and breathed solo-q since the beginning and I know how selfishness of the pugs encourages long distance fights, whenever such meta rears its head. Nothing makes a pug retreat and burrow its face in the sand faster than a 30-45 PPFLD turning its torso armor orange. Multiply that by up to 12 mechs per side, and...

Are you suggesting that I'm taking the comp play line and not seeing this from a solo queue level? Me, of all people?

I'm very aware of how solo queue games work. I've got more than 8000 of them, after all, and surviving and prospering in the solo queue is exactly how I roll.

ED as per PTS3 *limits* ranged firepower in the solo queue. There's a lot less. You get 30pt hits from dual Gauss (and dual Gauss+ERPPC for 50pt) hits right now, not to mention heavy laser alphas even if they're going out of style at the high end. Those long range hits on the pts are smaller, and have way longer cooldowns.

Cowardice may well make people hide like they often do now, but there's no logic to saying it'll make them hide MORE, with less damage coming in.

After all, right now on live you could have a bunch of ppc/Gauss (etc, etc) snipers that would be strictly more dangerous than they are on pts, or dakka mechs pushing much higher DPS. It's all lower on live.

Meanwhile, "the death of brawling"? When brawlers are the LEAST affected (for reasons in my prior post)? That's a hard sell.

The 7 second cooldowns on Gauss and cERPPC are a HUGE disadvantage.