13 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I have a strong feeling that the whole 15 PPFLD cERPPC thing is going to fall through. When it does, here are my suggestions on how to globally balance all PPCs. Simple, nothing crazy.


PPC
Tons : 7
Damage : 10
Cooldown : 4.8
Heat : 10
ED : 10


ERPPC
Tons : 7
Damage : 10
Cooldown : 4.8
Heat : 14
ED : 10


cERPPC
Tons : 6
Damage : 10 + (2.5 + 2.5 Splash)
Cooldown : 4.8
Heat : 15
ED : 12


Run that through a test on the PTR, if PPCs are too prominent, check first to make sure the problem mechs don't have significant cooldown quirks skewing their performance.

Think I'm going to take a break head-aching over the PTS for a while. I need off this rollercoaster to recoup.

[Reno Blade]

From the other thread:

Reno Blade, on 02 September 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

For PPC balance my suggestion today (PTS3) would be
without splash and less heat:
PPC 10 dmg, 8 heat, 12 draw, 5s cd
isERPPC 10 dmg, 12 heat, 14 draw, 5.4s cd
cERPPC 14 dmg, 15 heat, 16 draw, 6s cd

with splash:
PPC 8 +2 +2 dmg, 8 heat, 10 draw, 4.6s cd
isERPPC 10 +1 +1 dmg, 12 heat, 12 draw, 4.6s cd
cERPPC 12 +2.5 +2.5 dmg, 14 heat, 15 draw, 4.6s cd

I actually think that a powerfull PPC would make more fun, but I always liked the splash idea here.
Similar high draw such as Gauss could work, but I would also reduce max Energy from 30 to 25.

Edited by Reno Blade, 02 September 2016 - 07:32 AM.

[Tiantara]

- I'm still think that PPC better change this way.

Spoiler

PPC - 7 Damage + 1.5 damage splash
Heat = 9
Energy consumption - 9
Cooldown = 4.6sec

ERPPC - 8 damage + 1.5 damage splash.
Heat = 10
Energy consumption - 9
Cooldown = 4.9sec

C-ERPPC do 9 damage + 1.5 damage splash.
heat = 12
Energy consumption - 10
Cooldown = 5sec

[Appuagab]

Making Extended Range PPC a straight more damaging upgrade to regular PPC is completely bad idea. Regular PPCs are already underused on non-quirked mechs compared to ERPPC. Adding splash damage which was implemented just to keep Clan PPC from being OP is also totally unnecessary. In that way we can just move to tabletop dice rolling to decide which components are hit.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Yeah, I just don't think theres any need to complicate the issue. Leave splash on the cERPPCs that it was designed for. Give all PPCs the same cooldown and the same pinpoint damage. Change the heat and range as canon would dictate, it works FINE on live. This whole redefining PPCs thing has been headache.

The problem really began with the gauss changes which made PPC gauss mechs to good. Well the ED heat penalties and Gauss ED have been tweaked. There's no longer a need for these non-vanilla PPCs when the vanilla ones are fair and balanced.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 02 September 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[cazidin]

Appuagab, on 02 September 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

Making Extended Range PPC a straight more damaging upgrade to regular PPC is completely bad idea. Regular PPCs are already underused on non-quirked mechs compared to ERPPC. Adding splash damage which was implemented just to keep Clan PPC from being OP is also totally unnecessary. In that way we can just move to tabletop dice rolling to decide which components are hit.

Hmm... maybe lower the PPC CD a bit more so they have a DPS advantage, whereas ER PPCs have an alpha advantage? I feel that this would make them distinct beyond the range advantage that ER PPCs offer. Keep splash damage AWAY from PPCs at ALL costs!

[Jack Shayu Walker]

cazidin, on 02 September 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Hmm... maybe lower the PPC CD a bit more so they have a DPS advantage, whereas ER PPCs have an alpha advantage? I feel that this would make them distinct beyond the range advantage that ER PPCs offer. Keep splash damage AWAY from PPCs at ALL costs!

Fully disagree, PPCs are great how they work on live. The only reason PGI started tweaking them in the first place was because they're boat alphas were too high. The increase in ED penalties has taken care of that.

Give back the splash and give back the cooldown.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Only real issue on live with PPC's is their heat and low speed makes them inferior to LPL's which is the main problem. Of course setting them to the same heat as their tech base LPL would be a bad move, better velocity and making standard PPC's be 1.5 (for 8.5 heat) heat over an IS LPL would be a good starting place, ERPPC being 2.5 (for 9.5 heat) and cERPPC's would be 12.5 heat against 10 heat of live server's cLPL. Throw in a nice velocity boost of maybe 25% to all of them and PPC's would be a nice pin point side grade to the LPL.

Because to be honest the main reason people don't take PPC's is the heat cost for the pinpoint nature is too high, and it should be a higher heat cost than the available LPL for either tech base since it is front loaded damage, same time, it should be appealing to take a PPC of any type for someone who can aim well, hence increasing velocity making it so it is just a bit easier to hit more targets. Of course we don't want it to be too easy and put PPC's to being the same speed as Gauss.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 02 September 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Only real issue on live with PPC's is their heat and low speed makes them inferior to LPL's which is the main problem. Of course setting them to the same heat as their tech base LPL would be a bad move, better velocity and making standard PPC's be 1.5 (for 8.5 heat) heat over an IS LPL would be a good starting place, ERPPC being 2.5 (for 9.5 heat) and cERPPC's would be 12.5 heat against 10 heat of live server's cLPL. Throw in a nice velocity boost of maybe 25% to all of them and PPC's would be a nice pin point side grade to the LPL.

Because to be honest the main reason people don't take PPC's is the heat cost for the pinpoint nature is too high, and it should be a higher heat cost than the available LPL for either tech base since it is front loaded damage, same time, it should be appealing to take a PPC of any type for someone who can aim well, hence increasing velocity making it so it is just a bit easier to hit more targets. Of course we don't want it to be too easy and put PPC's to being the same speed as Gauss.

It think these are all fair points.

My real greatest fear is that PGI is just going to balance PPC so they're just energy gauss, and be done with it. I want cERPPCs to reatain their Live playstyle after they've been balanced, but segments of the community seem driven to turn the cERPPC into E-Gauss and leave the IS PPCs alone.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 September 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

It think these are all fair points.

My real greatest fear is that PGI is just going to balance PPC so they're just energy gauss, and be done with it. I want cERPPCs to reatain their Live playstyle after they've been balanced, but segments of the community seem driven to turn the cERPPC into E-Gauss and leave the IS PPCs alone.

Yeah I have noticed the same issue of people wanting them to be energy gauss. I like how IS PPC and ERPPC work, they are great snap fire high risk high reward weapons. Of course some are like "how are they high risk you have almost no exposure time", well you can miss, and then you have 0 damage for all that heat. I don't want PPC's to get much faster, they are almost good where they are, but, they also suffer like AC/10's at being bad at hitting things at their optimal range. Possibly they could have PPC's dramatically decrease in damage past max range and have their projectile dim and expand making long range shots more likely to smack terrain or just do partial spread damage like an LB. This would make them less energy gauss or energy AC/10's and more something unique.

But I am coming up with things that PGI will ever do, cERPPC's will go to being 6.5s cool down with all damage in one point for 15 damage. This is unfortunate but it better fits the mind set of what people want for boating instead of making weapons have a place and purpose with their own play styles.

[ScarecrowES]

I'd be very interested just to do away with all these band-aids and per-weapon/type/boogeyman buffs and nerfs and create a real heat system and then balance the weapons directly.

All this nonsense stems from the fact that the base heat system is broken in the first place. GH worked well enough as a band-aid because it was just trying to fix what the base system broke in the first place. Now ED is adding new mechanics on top of all the band-aids and on top of what's broken. And that further requires more special rules and band-aids to make work.

We really just need to strip all this away and start from scratch.

[Reno Blade]

ScarecrowES, on 02 September 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

I'd be very interested just to do away with all these band-aids and per-weapon/type/boogeyman buffs and nerfs and create a real heat system and then balance the weapons directly.

All this nonsense stems from the fact that the base heat system is broken in the first place. GH worked well enough as a band-aid because it was just trying to fix what the base system broke in the first place. Now ED is adding new mechanics on top of all the band-aids and on top of what's broken. And that further requires more special rules and band-aids to make work.

We really just need to strip all this away and start from scratch.

Whats the difference if you "just balance the weapons directly" compared to putting fine-tuned ED values on each weapon?
ED bar vs Heat bar only?
I think that we need to have something like ED just to penalize larger group fire over smaller group fire to prevent "arms race" of who can mount more.

The effect of ED is very similar to the 30 heat limit solution flying around, but actually makes it possible to fine-tune AND to keep "cool" weapons cool.
There would be NO way to balance the weapons with their current heat values (e.g. low heat Gauss/AC vs E/M-weapons) for how much you can pump out per second and in a single alpha.



Please try to post constructive posts in such threads as this weapon-specific one. There are enough places where you can provide alternative ideas.

Edited by Reno Blade, 03 September 2016 - 01:30 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Reno Blade, on 03 September 2016 - 01:28 AM, said:

Whats the difference if you "just balance the weapons directly" compared to putting fine-tuned ED values on each weapon?
ED bar vs Heat bar only?
I think that we need to have something like ED just to penalize larger group fire over smaller group fire to prevent "arms race" of who can mount more.

The effect of ED is very similar to the 30 heat limit solution flying around, but actually makes it possible to fine-tune AND to keep "cool" weapons cool.
There would be NO way to balance the weapons with their current heat values (e.g. low heat Gauss/AC vs E/M-weapons) for how much you can pump out per second and in a single alpha.



Please try to post constructive posts in such threads as this weapon-specific one. There are enough places where you can provide alternative ideas.

OK, how about this... the heat system CAUSES these balance problems. It does us no good to try to balance weapons based on the use of a single one, and then use a heat system that allows players to use more than the game intends. Or vice versa.

PPCs specifically have long been dialed WAY back as individual weapons, making them fundementally useless in most applications out of fear of what happens when you mount a couple of them on the same mech.

Every time we say "hey, shouldn't PPCs be better than this," and change the numbers so they sit where they should, we realize "oh crap, if I mount a few of these together, they're too good," and end up dialing them back.

The heat system is the problem. It's always been the problem. ED just adds even more problems. It's another layer of unnecessary nonsense that throws balance even farther out of whack.

So now, not only do we have the balance of single weapon vs groups of weapons out of whack, but now we have to throw in some absurd notion of acceptable damage and alphas too... how much damage is ok for this PPC, or that PPC. Is it more or less than lasers. Blah.

You really want to fix PPCs? Fix heat first.

MWO gives an extra 30 heat, completely penalty free and dissipates it at the same rate as the rest, regardless of what the player is doing. This has a massive impact on balance. High-heat weapons like PPCs, which normally would require a massive commitment to use and need a great deal of control are now quite easy to use and don't see much of a penalty for overuse. So we feel the need to dial them back. Because sometimes, they're too good. The thing is, they SHOULD be that good... but you should have to PAY for them to be that good.

The Warhawk PAYS for that superiority, but can't use it because players don't like the abuse MWO allows.

Until we fix heat, we're just chasing some sort of balance that can't ever come.

[Andi Nagasia]

they seem balanced to me,

Andi Nagasia, on 02 September 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

ED PTS3 PPC Stats
(as of now these are the Current PTS PPC Stats)
Weapon,........Damage,..Heat,...Cool-down,..Range,...
PPC(IS),............10..........10............5...........90-540....
ER-PPC(IS),......10.........13.5..........5.............810.......
C-ER-PPC,........15..........15..........6.8............810.......

Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 03 September 2016 - 04:03 PM.