19 replies to this topic

[Dingo Battler]

At least the SB can adapt to stagger-fire as its UAC20 comes out in a series of shots.

The atlas has to torso twist to be even remotely survivable.

Is this classic mech going to die?

Edited by KBurn85, 02 September 2016 - 04:33 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

This why I keep asking for larger draws on assaults. Atleast.they could quirk mechs draw if they suck to bad.

[Arkroma]

Where exactly is the issue? Unless you are going to tell me that you want to alpha with SRM6*4 and AC20 at a single click I can't see any problems.

[Tiantara]

- I have 3 Atlas and they all best. See no problem to take a fight with SB on Atlas. Atlas now have to part alpha - 1 shot = AC20 (or else) 2nd shot = SRM pack.

[Wintersdark]

KBurn85, on 02 September 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

At least the SB can adapt to stagger-fire as its UAC20 comes out in a series of shots.

The atlas has to torso twist to be even remotely survivable.

Is this classic mech going to die?

If the SB is using a UAC20, he's dumb.

The SB is going to staggerfire just like the AS7.

But I was able to use AS7's very effectiely in PTS2, which had MUCH steeper penalties. Yes, you have to fire your AC20 and SRM's separately between twists. So? Everyone firing at you is spreading their fire too, allowing you to make better use of that armor and structure.

Also, the D-DC w/ dual LBX+SRM's is a monster, able to alpha the lot.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 02 September 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

If the SB is using a UAC20, he's dumb.

So much this.

[Gas Guzzler]

Arkroma, on 02 September 2016 - 05:27 AM, said:

Where exactly is the issue? Unless you are going to tell me that you want to alpha with SRM6*4 and AC20 at a single click I can't see any problems.

Fire and twist, that is how you brawl. Otherwise, you are vulnerable to dakka.

Everyone is way too "kill alpha" happy and not thinking through the indirect effects.

The Atlas is definitely getting the shaft, no doubt about it.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 September 2016 - 08:48 AM.

[Shadowspawn42]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 September 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Fire and twist, that is how you brawl. Otherwise, you are vulnerable to dakka.

Everyone is way too "kill alpha" happy and not thinking through the indirect effects.

The Atlas is definitely getting the shaft, no doubt about it.

The Kodiak-3 is getting hit the hardest of any build I have seen. Fire and Twist mechs like the Atlas are better off than sustain mechs like the KDK-3.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 September 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Fire and twist, that is how you brawl. Otherwise, you are vulnerable to dakka.

Everyone is way too "kill alpha" happy and not thinking through the indirect effects.

The Atlas is definitely getting the shaft, no doubt about it.

You still fire and twist, you just alternate SRM's then AC20's. You don't need to stare - worked absolutely fine for me in PTS2, and that was way more restrictive WRT AC20's.

With that said, the D-DC definitely gets a leg up with 2LBX10+SRM's, in much the same way the SB works with the LBX20.

[Sable]

Have you ever considered not alpha striking as a possible way to play?

[Moonlight Grimoire]

The Atlas, since it can't bring a large number of weapons thanks to hard point inflation power creep, is at a decided disadvantage to the Kodiak and really any other mech currently. Now I am not saying it is a dead mech, it is more of some mechs currently get to bring a wall of weapons or a group of weapons that compliment each other quite well without sacrificing too much. This is the issue with the Kodiak, it is yes humanoid, but, it can shield arm pretty well, it has clan XL's and can take a clan XL400 which puts it moving at the pace of the Cyclops.

More or less, the Atlas is outclassed due to being pigeon toed into taking large weapon systems in small numbers to make up for it's defects. I am not saying the Atlas needs 4B, 4M, and 8E, but, it needs something to allow it to take smaller multiple weapon systems to better allow it to keep pressure up. That and the Kodiak 3 needs to lose 1B in each ST to get +1E to both arms, but, the amount of screaming that would cause would be... Probably worse than Energy Range Lock of Infotech or even the minimap messup.

[SpiralFace]

I feel like that is a bad way to go. Mostly because all that does is put the game in a position where the best mechs are the ones that win the small arms race to spam the most weapons.

Sure that is what holds the mech back now compared to the HUGE amount of spam mechs that are coming out, but i don't think its healthy just to put the mech in the hardpoint spamming arms race against one another, rather, I would like to see something that allows mechs like the atlas to get the most out of the hardpoints it has.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

SpiralFace, on 02 September 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

I feel like that is a bad way to go. Mostly because all that does is put the game in a position where the best mechs are the ones that win the small arms race to spam the most weapons.

Sure that is what holds the mech back now compared to the HUGE amount of spam mechs that are coming out, but i don't think its healthy just to put the mech in the hardpoint spamming arms race against one another, rather, I would like to see something that allows mechs like the atlas to get the most out of the hardpoints it has.

That is why I don't feel the atlas needs a giant amount of hard point inflation or any hardpoint inflation at all (and the Kodiak 3 needs a nerf to just reduce it's potential dakka). The Atlas needs something though, a flat +2E to all versions would likely be ideal to just give it something as an intermediate weapon system. Because currently all I know for the Atlas is the AC/20 3xSRM6+A Hammer and Anvil set up. This to me is bad, it is a mech pigeon toed into frankly a very inflexible build. You put the Atlas next to a Kodiak, any Kodiak, and the Atlas is what it looks to be a relic of the past. To me this is a problem given it is supposed to be an iconic power house of a bruiser. I also feel the Atlas needs a re-model, badly. It's hit boxes aren't forgiving, it is too wide, and too blocky, it catches fire too easily. This issue compounds the fact that there is no other worth while build from what I have been shown other than the AC/20+SRM hammer. I am not 100% certain what the Atlas really needs to not get left in the dust of power creep, but, at the same time most solutions that pop into my mind are power creep in nature which is not healthy for the game.

[Wintersdark]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 02 September 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

That is why I don't feel the atlas needs a giant amount of hard point inflation or any hardpoint inflation at all (and the Kodiak 3 needs a nerf to just reduce it's potential dakka). The Atlas needs something though, a flat +2E to all versions would likely be ideal to just give it something as an intermediate weapon system. Because currently all I know for the Atlas is the AC/20 3xSRM6+A Hammer and Anvil set up. This to me is bad, it is a mech pigeon toed into frankly a very inflexible build. You put the Atlas next to a Kodiak, any Kodiak, and the Atlas is what it looks to be a relic of the past. To me this is a problem given it is supposed to be an iconic power house of a bruiser. I also feel the Atlas needs a re-model, badly. It's hit boxes aren't forgiving, it is too wide, and too blocky, it catches fire too easily. This issue compounds the fact that there is no other worth while build from what I have been shown other than the AC/20+SRM hammer. I am not 100% certain what the Atlas really needs to not get left in the dust of power creep, but, at the same time most solutions that pop into my mind are power creep in nature which is not healthy for the game.

There really shouldn't be any comparison between a Dakka KDK-3 and an AS7. You compare the KDK-SB with AS7's. The KDK-3 is something that should be compared with Dakka Maulers.

Kodiaks as a whole are not Clan Atlas's. They (Spirit Bear aside) play a wholly different role.

And in the AS7-DDC w/ SRM18+LBX20 vs. the SB with SRM24/LBX20 comparison (on PTS), it's a pretty reasonable comparison. The SB is faster (only a little normally but substantially with MASC bursts), but the Atlas twists as fast(MASCing SB) or faster (non-MASCing SB), and has substantially more structure, while dealing higher DPS due to the 2LBX10's short cooldown and higher damage SRM's.

Edited by Wintersdark, 02 September 2016 - 07:23 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Wintersdark, on 02 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

There really shouldn't be any comparison between a Dakka KDK-3 and an AS7. You compare the KDK-SB with AS7's. The KDK-3 is something that should be compared with Dakka Maulers.

Kodiaks as a whole are not Clan Atlas's. They (Spirit Bear aside) play a wholly different role.

And in the AS7-DDC w/ SRM18+LBX20 vs. the SB with SRM24/LBX20 comparison (on PTS), it's a pretty reasonable comparison. The SB is faster (only a little normally but substantially with MASC bursts), but the Atlas twists as fast(MASCing SB) or faster (non-MASCing SB), and has substantially more structure, while dealing higher DPS due to the 2LBX10's short cooldown and higher damage SRM's.

Okay, you have a few solid points in there, the KDK-3 is more akin to the dakka-ab pack Mauler because both dakka press super hard and are assaults with decent mobility to say the least.

The main reason I tie the Atlas to the Kodiak is, that, for the most part the Kodiak is kind of just a clan Atlas. Look at the weapon hard point layouts. Just look at it's role is meant to be, both are meant to be a icon that wades into battle and slaughters those around it, the anchor for a force, or it's linchpin. That is why I compare them so closely, that and they are both humanoid 100 ton battlemechs with an Energy-Ballistic-Missile hard point mix that kind of match. The Kodiak just has the advantages of clan tech and more hard points, and higher up ballistic hard points. Either way, the point really is that the Atlas really is forced to take SRM's and large ballistics for the most part due to it can not pull off any other build really, and that is due to not only it's hard points, but, it's tech base and shape. Do I want an Atlas to be running around with 8-10 ML's like a KDK-1? No, not really, but, I have had a hard time justifying buying an Atlas as no build I can come up with really clicks with me and how I play, all of them come off as too reliant on getting close with a massive and slow mech. While not as futile as a dire wolf in getting close to do it's job, it is still rough. This is what I think is the core of most people's concern about the Atlas and Energy Draw, the current meta for it relies on a one two punch of heavy ballistics and SRM's to get around ghost heat and make use of what paltry hard points, tonnage, and slots it has and worse with being near required to take a standard engine.

I guess maybe the Atlas is the true case for the LFE for IS so we can stop trying to balance IS XL's against clan XL's. That and make C.A.S.E. on IS eat Gauss Rifle explosions at the expense of any ammo in that ST.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 02 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

There really shouldn't be any comparison between a Dakka KDK-3 and an AS7.

That is unless it is the LBX40 Kodiak (4 LBX10s, not 2 LBX20s), which is honestly a strong contender for new brawling Assault overlord. It doesn't have the speed of the SB or the structure like the Atlas, but it has the ability to alpha and twist and has deceptively better range than people realize. Whether it could beat the SB or Atlas, I'm not for sure, but it seems more plausible than it did before (not that it is a good thing, it being a pure boat).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 September 2016 - 07:55 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

That is unless it is the LBX40 Kodiak (4 LBX10s, not 2 LBX20s), which is honestly a strong contender for new brawling Assault overlord. It doesn't have the speed of the SB or the structure like the Atlas, but it has the ability to alpha and twist and has deceptively better range than people realize. Whether it could beat the SB or Atlas, I'm not for sure, but it seems more plausible than it did before (not that it is a good thing, it being a pure boat).

Yeah, since the LBX spread tightening, you can land all 40 damage on a very small target - a regular assault CT, or even most/all on a Heavy CT even at ~250m. And it's still pushing 40 damage right out to optimal range(540 iirc?), and at that point you're just hitting the whole torso. Not optimal, but able to deal non-trivial damage at long range too is definitely handy for a brawler.

I learned how dangerous that can be the hard way on a Mauler some time ago. I've traditionally ignored LBX based mechs at any range, but that was a dumb thing to do. Damn Mauler tore my torso armor off way faster than I expected >.<


But yeah, that's in a different class really than the AS7.

Edited by Wintersdark, 02 September 2016 - 08:13 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 02 September 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

Okay, you have a few solid points in there, the KDK-3 is more akin to the dakka-ab pack Mauler because both dakka press super hard and are assaults with decent mobility to say the least.

The main reason I tie the Atlas to the Kodiak is, that, for the most part the Kodiak is kind of just a clan Atlas. Look at the weapon hard point layouts. Just look at it's role is meant to be, both are meant to be a icon that wades into battle and slaughters those around it, the anchor for a force, or it's linchpin. That is why I compare them so closely, that and they are both humanoid 100 ton battlemechs with an Energy-Ballistic-Missile hard point mix that kind of match. The Kodiak just has the advantages of clan tech and more hard points, and higher up ballistic hard points. Either way, the point really is that the Atlas really is forced to take SRM's and large ballistics for the most part due to it can not pull off any other build really, and that is due to not only it's hard points, but, it's tech base and shape. Do I want an Atlas to be running around with 8-10 ML's like a KDK-1? No, not really, but, I have had a hard time justifying buying an Atlas as no build I can come up with really clicks with me and how I play, all of them come off as too reliant on getting close with a massive and slow mech. While not as futile as a dire wolf in getting close to do it's job, it is still rough. This is what I think is the core of most people's concern about the Atlas and Energy Draw, the current meta for it relies on a one two punch of heavy ballistics and SRM's to get around ghost heat and make use of what paltry hard points, tonnage, and slots it has and worse with being near required to take a standard engine.

I guess maybe the Atlas is the true case for the LFE for IS so we can stop trying to balance IS XL's against clan XL's. That and make C.A.S.E. on IS eat Gauss Rifle explosions at the expense of any ammo in that ST.

This is the thing though, the KDK can't really run SRM+large ballistic brawler builds on anything BUT the SB. The KDK-3 for example has only 4E+4B, no missile hardpoints and all. The others are just 0-2 missile hardpoints.

Kodiaks are actually primarily Energy spam mechs + a single ballistic hardpoint, with the exception of the SB (traditional AS7 build), and -3 (dakka mauler build).

Just because they look like AS7's doesn't make them Clan Atlas's in the traditional sense. Perhaps before the days of quirks that could have been the case, but as the AS7 has such immense structural and twist quirks, it's a very different animal now.

Of course, that's ignoring that the KDK-5 and the AS7-BH are very similar, and the non-DDC/S AS7's are generally not used at all (much like the other KDK's for that matter, though admittedly the "bad" KDK's have it way, way better than the "bad" AS7's).


But when you're talking Atlas roles, you're almost always talking AS7-DDC and AS7-S brawler roles, which basically only the KDK-SB is doing. Other KDK's are much less effective in that front-and-center role as they're huge, have mediocre hitboxes, twist slower than AS7's and lack the structure to eat fire like an AS7 can.

[Cato Zilks]

SpiralFace, on 02 September 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

I feel like that is a bad way to go. Mostly because all that does is put the game in a position where the best mechs are the ones that win the small arms race to spam the most weapons.

Sure that is what holds the mech back now compared to the HUGE amount of spam mechs that are coming out, but i don't think its healthy just to put the mech in the hard point spamming arms race against one another, rather, I would like to see something that allows mechs like the atlas to get the most out of the hard points it has.

Spiral, I agree. But, when you increase cooldowns and cap energy draw at low numbers, then you are disadvantaging mechs that bring larger weapons. Mechs with a lot of hardpoints get to push right up to the 30 ED line while big weapon mechs dont. What are you going to fire with an ac 20? 1 SRM? It is underpowered in relation to the ED line (20/30) but too powerful for the other similarly ranged things to fire as well.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Wintersdark, on 02 September 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

This is the thing though, the KDK can't really run SRM+large ballistic brawler builds on anything BUT the SB. The KDK-3 for example has only 4E+4B, no missile hardpoints and all. The others are just 0-2 missile hardpoints.

Kodiaks are actually primarily Energy spam mechs + a single ballistic hardpoint, with the exception of the SB (traditional AS7 build), and -3 (dakka mauler build).

Just because they look like AS7's doesn't make them Clan Atlas's in the traditional sense. Perhaps before the days of quirks that could have been the case, but as the AS7 has such immense structural and twist quirks, it's a very different animal now.

Of course, that's ignoring that the KDK-5 and the AS7-BH are very similar, and the non-DDC/S AS7's are generally not used at all (much like the other KDK's for that matter, though admittedly the "bad" KDK's have it way, way better than the "bad" AS7's).


But when you're talking Atlas roles, you're almost always talking AS7-DDC and AS7-S brawler roles, which basically only the KDK-SB is doing. Other KDK's are much less effective in that front-and-center role as they're huge, have mediocre hitboxes, twist slower than AS7's and lack the structure to eat fire like an AS7 can.

Alright I see my mistake in my assumptions, I blame bias of what i have typically fought which is brawling Dakka Bears (because dakka doesn't mind being up close) and SB's. But, the SB and KDK-3 are very common from my experience. Yes an Atlas has a lot of structure, which helps it get close for the DDC and S brawler roles mainly competing against the SB. But, this does leave the other Atlas builds kind of lacking which I guess is something both the Kodiak and Atlas need some love on are the builds that can't do brawling or heavy ballistic boating just needing something to distinguish them and give them a role. Guess the face time of the KDK-3 without shake and blinding explosions would make it have less hope in close combat, but, it still has pretty meaty DPS.

As for how to deal with the Atlas outside of the AS7-S I am still drawing a blank, more structure is nice but maybe lower crit chance would be more useful in place of such high structure or something. More or less making it so it can be broken open and keep it's weapons longer, but, it will still die faster than the AS7-S so it is a different way to approach brawling or something.

IDK, maybe I am in search for a solution for something that is not that much of a problem and am just bitter from not finding a fun Atlas build that works for me.

Cato Zilks, on 02 September 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

Spiral, I agree. But, when you increase cooldowns and cap energy draw at low numbers, then you are disadvantaging mechs that bring larger weapons. Mechs with a lot of hardpoints get to push right up to the 30 ED line while big weapon mechs dont. What are you going to fire with an ac 20? 1 SRM? It is underpowered in relation to the ED line (20/30) but too powerful for the other similarly ranged things to fire as well.

This is why I was thinking just adding an additional energy hard point to both arms of the Atlas just so it has the ability to cycle through more weapons so it can have it's one big weapon system or two of them, but, have something to back those systems up with, though after thinking about it, that might be more for the non DDC and non S variants due to they lack the structure or ecm to aid them. Having say 2E in each arm, 2E in the CT, 1B and 1M on the K would give it more options as that missile hardpoint doesn't help it much, but, if we increased the M hardpoint numbers we just make the K look like it can do the exact same build as the S and DDC which doesn't help as it doesn't have the high structure quarks. Oh wait, the K has insane structure quirks, but, the lack of being able to do the AC/20+SRM6 hammer leaves it hanging in the meta it seems.

Of course I guess what ED would really do is shift things away to the K as it has the structure to handle more DPS like builds, plus a lower crit change against it quirk.

Again, I am uncertain exactly how to deal with the Atlas. Maybe the Atlas would be fine and it is an issue more of thinking about how to use the Atlas in too focus of ideals current Meta.