25 replies to this topic

[Alteran]

Title pretty much sums it up. As PTS3 stands now, if you've played your mechs and tested things out let PGI know.

Edited by Alteran, 06 September 2016 - 05:43 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I predict ED will lead in this poll. Unless it's the same people polling every time.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 06 September 2016 - 05:47 PM.

[Alteran]

This actually has no question that asks whether ED or GH is better over the other. This is a pure poll on the reaction of players that have used PTS3 and tested their mechs and loadouts.

Pretty simply: does it change how you will play?

From what I have tested and use on Live servers, ED has no penalty or benefit when using my Mechs and their load-outs. How I feel about ED/GH has been left out.

[Mystere]

My short answer is "yes".

My long answer is "I now have a super duper macro for that". <maniacal >

[Alteran]

I've never made a macro for any game that I've played, but in PTS2 it was pretty much the first thing I did for my 11xCSPL Executioner. Worked like a boss.

[davoodoo]

0 change in playstyle, ill still pack as much firepower in alpha as system allows me...
I had misery, with 4 llas and ac20, ill still fire it 2by2 and ac20 in 3rd group...unless they further nerf llas dmg so i can fire all 4 at once and if i dont outright decide that ppc+gauss is better choice...

Thing is that ill rebuild mechs for erppc/ppc, uac10 and god knows what for is, cause lasers and uac5 were nerfed to the ground...

Thats assuming ill be willing to play game after ed...

Edited by davoodoo, 07 September 2016 - 08:02 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Will it change my builds? No. Will it change my play style? Only in the sense that my play style will become "play a different game."

[Reno Blade]

ScarecrowES, on 07 September 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

Will it change my builds? No. Will it change my play style? Only in the sense that my play style will become "play a different game."

If I understand you correctly, you don't need to change your builds, but still quit playing the game even if you don't need to change?

As most limits in ED are similar to existing GH limits, I don't need to change much.
But I can now try to use more mixed builds.

[ScarecrowES]

Reno Blade, on 07 September 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

If I understand you correctly, you don't need to change your builds, but still quit playing the game even if you don't need to change?

No, you misunderstood. I don't need to change my builds because I wouldn't be playing anymore. I don't like the way the PTS plays, and I will like it less on the live server when everyone goes back to whichever meta they choose. Thus, because I would not likely continue playing if ED hit the live servers, there would be no need to change my builds.

And for the record, to remain competitive on the live servers, I'd have to change nearly all of my builds from what they are now... the sorts of mixed builds GH promotes that are largely un-viable in ED.

[C E Dwyer]

Mystere, on 06 September 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

My short answer is "yes".

My long answer is "I now have a super duper macro for that". <maniacal >

Alteran, on 06 September 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

I've never made a macro for any game that I've played, but in PTS2 it was pretty much the first thing I did for my 11xCSPL Executioner. Worked like a boss.

This is why ED is on the whole a massive failure, if a person hasn't the natural skills to roll their buttons and weapons groups, they will macro, those people without the hard/software or skills will be at a massive disadvantage and the biggest question to ask is when they are at this state will they continue to play or more importantly, continue to pay money.

The second reason why ED is going to be a pointless addition, is that to make it work PGI have had to nerf weapons hard.

Now they could have just done this with the existing ghost heat, or even have neither system and just nerf the weapons, though some have been hit so hard that I don't think they can be nerfed any harder without them being removed from mechs and not used altogether.

there are plenty of workable suggestions on these boards that will work as well as or better than ED and would take a couple of weeks to write the code, but P.G.I continue to throw money and time at bad over complex flashy idea's that will simply not work.

By these boards I mean the whole set and archives leading back to closed beta

Edited by Cathy, 07 September 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[Alteran]

Reno Blade, on 07 September 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

But I can now try to use more mixed builds.

So why aren't you now?

Unless you are playing on a comp team in MRBC or a highly competitive FP/CW team (which really doesn't exist any longer) why aren't you playing mixed builds now?

I won't speak to anyone else but myself, but I really try not to use the big bad meta's. I use a Timber with 2xCLRMART15, 2xCMPL and 2xCERML, my Summoners 2xCERPPC's, Shadowcat with 3xCSSRM4's and 2xCERML. I like the versatility and speed that these three Mechs give. Plus, this is QP not a comp match, have fun with it. That being said, I do have Mechs that are meta-like, but I don't really use them a whole lot.

So, how many people in the ED forum actually play MWO? From what I see out there, the majority of players are using a variety of configurations and weapon load-outs. They use multiple fire-groups and almost every type of Mech available.

Perhaps this is why I have such a hard time understanding and seeing the 'need' for a new heat system. I do see the need for new maps, game modes, and a complete overhaul of FP to a in-depth and immersive game system. That is where I see a 'need' and what will either bring people back and/or bring in and retain new players.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Alteran, on 07 September 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

So why aren't you now?

Unless you are playing on a comp team in MRBC or a highly competitive FP/CW team (which really doesn't exist any longer) why aren't you playing mixed builds now?

I won't speak to anyone else but myself, but I really try not to use the big bad meta's. I use a Timber with 2xCLRMART15, 2xCMPL and 2xCERML, my Summoners 2xCERPPC's, Shadowcat with 3xCSSRM4's and 2xCERML. I like the versatility and speed that these three Mechs give. Plus, this is QP not a comp match, have fun with it. That being said, I do have Mechs that are meta-like, but I don't really use them a whole lot.

So, how many people in the ED forum actually play MWO? From what I see out there, the majority of players are using a variety of configurations and weapon load-outs. They use multiple fire-groups and almost every type of Mech available.

Perhaps this is why I have such a hard time understanding and seeing the 'need' for a new heat system. I do see the need for new maps, game modes, and a complete overhaul of FP to a in-depth and immersive game system. That is where I see a 'need' and what will either bring people back and/or bring in and retain new players.

You're seeing lots of mixed builds that are more competitive, such as AC20/4aSRM6, but most normal mixed builds are simply outclassed. I actively avoid meta-builds, and it's frustrating having my armor evaporate in one or two alphas. I have a friend who runs a laser-vomit Mad Cat capaple of at least 60+ alphas to troll, and he often racks up 800+ damage games. The 4 UAC10 Kodiak is also an obvious annoyance with GH, which, under ED, is actually a bit underpowered, although that has to do with how the double-tap mechanic plays with these systems.

The mixed builds I play would undoubtedly fare better with those alphas being better punished, although with how much weapon values are being tweaked balance is a bit iffy in the PTS, although I like that PGI is trying lots of sweeping balance changes.

[davoodoo]

Hell maybe im just crazy and im sitting in some asylum imagining things, but laservomit isnt meta for a while now...

Edited by davoodoo, 07 September 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

davoodoo, on 07 September 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

Hell maybe im just crazy and im sitting in some asylum imagining things, but laservomit isnt meta for a while now...

It's still a high level build, one that maximizes damage for facetime.

[davoodoo]

Gentleman Reaper, on 07 September 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

It's still a high level build, one that maximizes damage for facetime.

What im seeing clanners run now is actually ppfld with gauss and erppc...

As for is, like always whatever best design quirks allow for which are mostly lpls, llas and erll.

[Pjwned]

Yeah, it'll change the game's installation status on my computer.

[ScarecrowES]

Honestly... the only thing to come out of ED that I see as a positive is that 99% of the work required to build the TT heat system in MWO has been done thanks to the coding and mechanics introduced in ED. With the work they've already done, PGI could adapt the current system to emulate the TT system in real time and have it back on the PTS in less than a day.

And of course, the more you hear people talk about what ED does well, or GH does well, or what the base system does well... and of course what those things do NOT do well or what people want to see instead... the more people talk, the more they're saying things that point to us needing to give the TT system a shot.

Because damn near any time someone has a reasonable want from the heat system, we can point to the TT system and say, "yeah, this does that." And it's finally well within reach now.

[Alteran]

Gentleman Reaper - I apologize up front on this, this post is not an attack on you, it's a post directed on what I'm seeing here as POV's that ED is supposed to 'fix?'.

Gentleman Reaper, on 07 September 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

I actively avoid meta-builds, and it's frustrating having my armor evaporate in one or two alphas.

I've been waiting for a post like this one for a while. Focusing on this first point, this seems to be what the whole discussion and the development of ED, was supposed to curb - it doesn't.

In GH, yes the high Alpha Builds are out there and really they aren't hard to conceive - Laservomit - max all energy hard points and get a mix of ranges to get to the stupid high Alpha. Yes you can get high scoring games, but you know and I know, that you aren't doing that with Alpha shots only. You split up the weapon groups and use the Alpha strike here and there.

Test in ED: I use the Timberwolf 5xCSPL and 4xSRM6 = 78 point Alpha and I get 78% heat. Next up Timberwolf 2xCERLL and 6xCERML = 62 point Alpha and I get 94% heat. Map - Crimson Strait

Test in GH: I use the Timberwolf 5xCSPL and 4xSRM6 = 78 point Alpha and I get 42% heat. Next up Timberwolf 2xCERLL and 6xCERML = 62 point Alpha and I get 65% heat. Map - Crimson Strait

Is it inconceivable that our current system of heat, could have been adjusted to give us similar heat scales as ED? I'm pretty sure it could and it could have been done much simpler than a making a whole new mechanic and UI graphic.

My point being - the ED system does not avoid the stupid high Alpha strike. If your opponent is running 0 heat and this is their initial strike, they will be able to do it and your armor is gone in 1-2 Alpha strikes - depending on the Mech you are running and where they hit you.

Even though ED does push up the heat % on these strikes, it doesn't eliminate them. I guess my question after that is: was ED supposed to eliminate the high Alpha strike, curb it or ultimately redefine the limit of a sustained DPS strike?

The second point:

Gentleman Reaper, on 07 September 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

You're seeing lots of mixed builds that are more competitive, such as AC20/4aSRM6, but most normal mixed builds are simply outclassed.

Lots of mixed builds? Hell when people read this forum (me included initially), the picture has been painted that we're all running around with 50+ Laservomit/AC/UAC boats Alpha striking/killing mechs in single blows. Mixed builds that are competitive in GH??? IMPOSSIBLE I say!!!! Sarcasm off, yes in GH, we're all seeing people moving away from the 'meta-alpha' builds because the focus has shifted to sustained DPS and how much better those configurations are.

Next, what is a 'normal build' and how are they outclassed? Are normal builds Stock configurations? Some guy running around with 2 MG's and 4xLRM5s?

I can't comment on what you may be seeing in QP matches, but I'm seeing most builds that have 2 to 3 types of weapons with different ranges. As for the combinations, well they range across the board including MGs and Flamers. I've been killed by almost every type of weapon this weekend, including a guy that was keeping my heat up with 2 Flamers going on me.

Sustained DPS shots range from 20-35 pts in a good combination of weapons and weapon groupings.

Isn't this what ED was supposed to guide people too? Is the ED system trying to fix a problem that has already self-corrected itself?

I guess at this point it really doesn't matter any longer. ED is going to be implemented regardless of how good or bad it really is. For those of us that have already adopted and used sustained DPS this is really a non-issue. Get your single strike to 28-32 pts and your golden - torso's will still be melted in 2-3 hits. No worries, if you have the capability to deliver a 60+ pt Alpha, you still can. Just do it when you are at near 0 heat.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Alteran, on 07 September 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

Gentleman Reaper - I apologize up front on this, this post is not an attack on you, it's a post directed on what I'm seeing here as POV's that ED is supposed to 'fix?'.

No worries, I like seeing opinions different from my own that brings forth good points.

Quote

I've been waiting for a post like this one for a while. Focusing on this first point, this seems to be what the whole discussion and the development of ED, was supposed to curb - it doesn't.

In GH, yes the high Alpha Builds are out there and really they aren't hard to conceive - Laservomit - max all energy hard points and get a mix of ranges to get to the stupid high Alpha. Yes you can get high scoring games, but you know and I know, that you aren't doing that with Alpha shots only. You split up the weapon groups and use the Alpha strike here and there.

Test in ED: I use the Timberwolf 5xCSPL and 4xSRM6 = 78 point Alpha and I get 78% heat. Next up Timberwolf 2xCERLL and 6xCERML = 62 point Alpha and I get 94% heat. Map - Crimson Strait

Test in GH: I use the Timberwolf 5xCSPL and 4xSRM6 = 78 point Alpha and I get 42% heat. Next up Timberwolf 2xCERLL and 6xCERML = 62 point Alpha and I get 65% heat. Map - Crimson Strait

Is it inconceivable that our current system of heat, could have been adjusted to give us similar heat scales as ED? I'm pretty sure it could and it could have been done much simpler than a making a whole new mechanic and UI graphic.

My point being - the ED system does not avoid the stupid high Alpha strike. If your opponent is running 0 heat and this is their initial strike, they will be able to do it and your armor is gone in 1-2 Alpha strikes - depending on the Mech you are running and where they hit you.

Even though ED does push up the heat % on these strikes, it doesn't eliminate them. I guess my question after that is: was ED supposed to eliminate the high Alpha strike, curb it or ultimately redefine the limit of a sustained DPS strike?

The system isn't meant to stop these alphas from occurring, simply to give them more risk, and like you've shown me, that's pretty much what it accomplishes. I agree that the issue with alphas in general is that you can dump all your damage up-front and turn away, and that's not something ED can really accomplish unless you were to reduce the draw limit to some stupidly low number, which would terrible. I feel what needs to be done is lower the heat cap, where ED would appear as a far less restricting system, and ED does a good job at penalizing ballistic boats, which is what would become the meta in a low heat cap environment.

Quote

The second point:

Lots of mixed builds? Hell when people read this forum (me included initially), the picture has been painted that we're all running around with 50+ Laservomit/AC/UAC boats Alpha striking/killing mechs in single blows. Mixed builds that are competitive in GH??? IMPOSSIBLE I say!!!! Sarcasm off, yes in GH, we're all seeing people moving away from the 'meta-alpha' builds because the focus has shifted to sustained DPS and how much better those configurations are.

Next, what is a 'normal build' and how are they outclassed? Are normal builds Stock configurations? Some guy running around with 2 MG's and 4xLRM5s?

I can't comment on what you may be seeing in QP matches, but I'm seeing most builds that have 2 to 3 types of weapons with different ranges. As for the combinations, well they range across the board including MGs and Flamers. I've been killed by almost every type of weapon this weekend, including a guy that was keeping my heat up with 2 Flamers going on me.

Sustained DPS shots range from 20-35 pts in a good combination of weapons and weapon groupings.

Isn't this what ED was supposed to guide people too? Is the ED system trying to fix a problem that has already self-corrected itself?

I guess at this point it really doesn't matter any longer. ED is going to be implemented regardless of how good or bad it really is. For those of us that have already adopted and used sustained DPS this is really a non-issue. Get your single strike to 28-32 pts and your golden - torso's will still be melted in 2-3 hits. No worries, if you have the capability to deliver a 60+ pt Alpha, you still can. Just do it when you are at near 0 heat.

Well there a few factors to consider here:

1) 1-2 group alpha builds are horribly dull, lots of people don't use them in the first place because of this (like me), and meta-builds tend to become more prevalent the higher tier you go. But, like lots of people have been complaining about, matchmaking hasn't been particularly effective recently, maybe due to dwindling population, so you're seeing more mixed builds in common play, even though they tend to do worse than competitive builds in most matches.

2) The last event was a nutty one which encouraged people to bring out weird builds. With lots of people going for the 3PV challenge there were lots of LRMs, TAGs and Narcs, as well as people trolling with flamers.

We can't really gauge how builds will differ because of the low number of people testing in the PTS, if PGI actually pulls the trigger and does a PTS event then hopefully we would see how ED fares in large groups of random players, but I know that my builds are virtually unchanged, and that most competitive builds aren't as effective as they are under GH. The only real balance issues I can see is related to the weapon changes in PTS3, IS LLs got an unwarranted nerf and clan LLs got their damage reduced a bit, with the 15 damage clan ERPPC being the most polarizing change, and potential balance breaker.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I really wan't those 15's, but there is more to it than that.