28 replies to this topic

[echochild]

So I started playing a month ago, and used to play the board game. One observation I've made is that in quick play, the more Clan mechs that are on the other team (esp. Kodiaks), the more likely my team is to lose (somewhere around a 2/3 ratio at least) or vise versa.

So, in quick play is there a point to playing IS mechs? I've always preferred IS, but I've seen little balance thus far between IS and Clan, and there appears to be no system to force or penalize Clan mech players to play with Clan tactics. Sure IS has quirks, but it doesn't seem like they make a whole ton of difference.

Can someone enlighten me on this? Much appreciated!

Edited by echochild, 11 October 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[Exard3k]

Clan and IS are pretty well balanced. In the first moment you see Mechs withs huge advantages like Clan XL Engines, superlong ranges and double damage autocannons as well as less tonnage for the same armament (e.g. LRMs).

But IS mechs have Quirks to compensate and much higher precision on every weapon. Low laser durations and heat efficient lasers and PPCs, one bullet per AC instead of multiple bullets spreading across multiple components and guided SRMs that spread so hard, the are almost useless vs. everything except light mechs. And their LRMs come in a stream of missiles instead of a single volley, so when lock breaks they only can apply a fraction of the damage and can be easily countered by AMS. Clan PPCs lack velocity quirks most of the time making them inaccurate at higher ranges.

If you can use that precision to your advantage, make use of your mobility (although Clanmechs usually have higher top speed but lack agility) and structure quirks, IS-Mechs are at least on par with Clan Mechs.

Oh and most players struggle to build good loadouts in the mechlab. Clan Omnimechs are more easy to build and more beginner friendly to drive because of Clan XL.

I don't feel like playing the "bad mechs" when dropping in CW with my unit or fighting in solo/group queue. Often I feel sorry for the clan mechs because of their disadvantages But I also play clan mechs very often so I know where the strengths and weaknesses lie.

Edit: Oh and there is the "its more expensive, so it has to be better"-factor that applies to both clan mechs and assault mechs. It's just a wrong assumption.

Edited by Exard3k, 11 October 2016 - 09:53 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Actually we come from a time period of this game where IS mechs where slightly overpowered compared to clan (at least in QP).

And they still got situations where they excell over claners.

Heat management and dps of IS mechs are supperior to clan mechs but the range bracket in wich they are effective is larger with clan mechs so IS Mechs tend to be more spezialized to do a certain thing and claners are much more flexible.

The dmg a light or med clan mech can carry tonn by ton of their load out may be supperior but the placement and specialization advantage on certain loadouts is with the IS mechs.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I personally like having both technologies on a team in quick play matches.

The following is a reflection of my own opinion.

Kodiaks and night Gyrs are extremelly powerful platforms, no doubt! They are probably the best of their classes. That being said, they are not without weaknesses. And i think when they are accompanied by Inner Sphere mechs, they become shining stars!

I love my KDK-3... (i absolutelly love gauss and ppcs) i wont lie. Its a powerhouse! But I also love my Battlemasters, and i think I enjoy playing my BLR-2C a tad more then my kodiak.

And well... i play video games for enjoyment. And well, lets be real, Quick Play is a casual format ment to be a time sink. Play what you want and try to have fun.

[Koniving]

I'm actually in agreement, even as an IS-preferred player, the IS to me is a bit overpowered even before faster firing rate quirks. Tack those in, and yeah we're blatantly overpowered compared to the Clanners.

If you have an issue with defeating Clan mechs, shoot some legs. Or so long as it is not a Hellbringer, shoot some cockpits if you can manage 33 damage (or less; often much less), you'll instantly kill every single Clan mech you see in a single blow.

[Vasili Kerensky]

Exard3k's arguments regarding IS-Clan balance are convincing. However, since I began playing this game - must be 10 weeks ago - Clan 'mechs account for about 90% of all challenge leaderboards in the various events. The players who argue for balance simply dismiss this overwhelming statistical fact against it or explain it with various implausible reasons - like, all the good players happen to play Clan 'mechs, etc. I think that it shows that Clan 'mechs are superior and there's no arguing against it.

[JC Daxion]

I think what you are seeing being a new player, is clans are just easier for new players to use. The omni system, and a couple select mechs you can play well..

IS takes lots more planing and thinking, and making each variant work.. For new players this is much harder.. When you go up in tiers, and play with better players you will notice things changing..

IS mechs can totally rock.. they just take a lot more experience IMO

[Willowleaf]

As they said.

You might notice that I'm in a Clan outfit, but even so, I prefer to run IS 'Mechs if I can for a couple of reasons.

For example, a Centurion will take a lot of punishment and still keep on fighting. The hardpoints might be more hotwired, but the quirks as mentioned usually off-set the Clan range bonus. Another issue that I've run into is a little bit of a comparison.

Clan OmniMech hardpoints are at points even more restricted that IS variants. I can't for the life of me see the point in a Mist Lynx that I can outdamage on a Locust -- and this is where another IS trait comes in handy. Clan energy weapons in true Zellbrigen fashion more or less dictate that you have to take hits if you want to dole out maximum damage.

And on top of that, Clan weapons heat you up a lot more. I can run around merrily in a 20-ton Locust with four Medium Lasers, faster than an Arctic Cheetah with a whole slew of clan weapons and still find myself with manageable heat and much more quicker damage dishing.

On top of that, at least with Clan Light Omnis, especially with the Cheetah is that you can't get rid of fixed components to save tonnage and space. Sure they get CASE for free, but you can't upgrade or downgrade engines, you can't get rid of jump jets and you most definitely are suffering from limited freedom in a different way. That and the fact that you lose out on Clan bonuses if you put an Omnipod from a different configuration (say, you want a Cheetah with ECM, you really need to slap Left Torso off a Prime to another config).

Sure, Clan 'Mechs cost more and you can fiddle around with them cheaper than with IS models in terms of hardpoints, but both sides have their pros and cons.

[echochild]

EDIT: I think more of what I'm talking about is less Clan Omnimechs, which I have found to be manageable opponents, and more of what were supposed to be Clan secondline mechs.

Hmmm... I see what you all are saying, but I can't tell you how many matches I've seen where there were a lance (or more) of Kodiaks and Nights Gyrs, and they absolutely tore our assaults (many IS) to shreds and the other team were PUG's, not full of units. I read in the forums that the IS vs. Clan mechs were balanced, but I've watched the Kodiaks and Night Gyr use poor tactics and still wreck IS heavy and assaults. Is it a range advantage thing?

I usually play light mechs, and if I see a Jenner IIC, I run (where as with IS Jenner, the only one that makes me run is Oxide). I've rarely played against a Jenner IIC and come out on the winning end, even going specifically for their legs (yes, I'm new, but I'm decent with my Locust PB from what other players who spectate tell me). I have jumped all kinds of IS heavy and assault mechs from behind and managed to do some good damage (minus Atlas's usually), but if I jump a Kodiak from behind, I'm just tickling the paint job, and hoping he pays more attention to me than the rest of my team.

Is it possible I'm seeing this trend because the matching system in QP is so horrible?

Edited by echochild, 11 October 2016 - 10:32 AM.

[Roughneck45]

echochild, on 11 October 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Hmmm... I see what you all are saying, but I can't tell you how many matches I've seen where there were a lance (or more) of Kodiaks and Nights Gyrs, and they absolutely tore our assaults (many IS) to shreds and the other team were PUG's, not

They are just really strong mechs with high mounts and the right mix of ballistic and energy hardpoints for high damge direct fire alphas.

Matchmaking isn't spectacular but I'd argue that has more to do with player population.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

KDK3 seems to be the lone exception to balance right now. It is the only thing the IS does not have a rough counter-part to.

Beyond that, I would have to say balance is pretty damn good right now.

Obviously, I am attached to an IS loyalist unit, but I have almost as many clan mechs as I do IS, and play both quite frequently.

If anything (KDK3 skill bear aside) I would argue that Clan Mechs are actually harder to use. The majority of weapon dynamics favor IS over Clan.

[echochild]

Ok, thank you all for your info. Maybe what I'm seeing is just a lot of Kodiak's making it seem like Clan has the advantage, when maybe it doesn't reflect the rest of the Clan mechs. I'm just getting kind of tired of QP matches where if I see when I'm scouting 2 or more Kodiak's on the opposing team, and none on mine, knowing the match is likely already a fail.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Couple of tips.

1) make the Kodiaks priority targets that should be focused on first - if possible -
2) if it is a dakka bear (auto cannons) you want take him down by poking in and out of cover with alphas. Same is generally true for brawling setups, ie Spirit Bear.
3) if it is a a pokey bear (gauss and PPCs) then you want to try to overwhelm him with constant fire, this may include brawling tactics.
4) don't get mad, get even. The KDK3 can be purchased for C-bills.

[Jaguaar]

There is some really good advice here from some veteran players. The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the Tier you are playing in. A Tier 5 match will, more than likely, be a MUCH different experience than a Tier 3 or higher match. You will find as you play longer and move up in the Tier system that player experience jumps to a much higher level in the later Tiers. I am not stating that the KDK isn't a strong mech (I like my KDK's for that very reason), however, piloting I believe makes more of a difference than the mech itself. (all else being equal of course) I have watched some very experienced players in lights rip apart KDK's/assaults. (more than once) With the correct people on Comms and a coordinated setup, a full lance of KDK's wouldnt stand a chance regardless of how strong they are.

I fully understand what you are seeing in the field but keep playing and as you progress and get better at tactics you will see first hand what I am talking about. Plus if your tactics are better, you will only help to make your team better.

Good luck out there and WELCOME TO MWO!!!!! I hope to see you on the battlefield!!!

[762 NATO]

I fear not the Kodiak. Dual guass to the mouth hole. Done, next?

Cheers.

[Sparrow1250]

As a relativity new player myself (been playing since July) all I play are IS mechs and I felt that I was getting crushed by clan mechs as well. But once I started mastering a few of the chassis and figured out what load-out works best from me and the mechs I run, I'm doing better. I'm still in the basement of tier 5, but my win/loss ratio is getting better. I have some goto mechs now that I'm pretty confidant in. When buy a new mech I still get clobbered at times until I find the sweet spot for that mech.

With that being said, this game is all about team work, if I drop with a bunch of Rambos we are going to get crushed. If I drop with pilots that clump up around the base and wait for the enemy, most of the time we die. If there is some semi-balance of team work and focus fire we have a fighting chance. I know I'm stating the obvious but still needs to be said.

[Single Mom]

IMO the challenge with IS mechs is that they force specialization. If the player doesn't fit the mech to capitalize on intended quirks immediately puts the player in a disadvantageous position. Moreover IS mechs, while cheaper at the mech store, are actually quite expensive to fit out once you take into account the various upgrades (endo/ferro/dhs), and cost of a new engine. A new player may jump into a stock IS mech for a cheap initial price, but without the needed upgrades the performance will certainly be a lot lower than the typical clan mech.

[BuckshotSchell]

Sometimes you just get out weighted. It happened to us twice last night. We dropped our three lances mostly mediums and heavies, with a few light scattered in, while the other team dropped all assaults and heavies. We got chewed up, even though we stuck together and had good tactics, we just could not do enough damage fast enough against another team with tactics that were just as good but out weighed us. One match was 5-12 the other was better at 8-12. The point is that matches like this seem to favor the KDK's or whatever, but it can be an illusion. They are very intimidating but the king crab wrecked us too. If you can get any of those big guys semi alone and focus them they go down fast, especially if you can get some light and fast mediums behind them or eating those big juicy legs.

Having said this, I do find the clan mechs are easier to out fit and be good with initially, but the IS mechs once mastered and outfitted right (expensive and time consuming) are very fun to play. It takes more work, C-bills, and practice to be really effective in an IS machine, and they do require a level of specialty that the clan mechs don't. Overall IMO my clan mechs just seem to be able to fill multiple roles better than any given IS mech I own, but I'm not implying that is due to game imbalance.

Edited by BuckshotSchell, 12 October 2016 - 06:38 AM.

[GweNTLeR]

Clan lights (ach and puma) are just plainly better than IS(with PB a possible exception). Clan mediums are extremely strong too (high mounts like hunchie, small like nova or agile like crow). Heavies are somewhat even, possibly a bit better on IS side (and thanks to that we have something looking like balance in CW). Assaults are, probably, well balanced.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Single Mom, on 12 October 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

IMO the challenge with IS mechs is that they force specialization. If the player doesn't fit the mech to capitalize on intended quirks immediately puts the player in a disadvantageous position. Moreover IS mechs, while cheaper at the mech store, are actually quite expensive to fit out once you take into account the various upgrades (endo/ferro/dhs), and cost of a new engine. A new player may jump into a stock IS mech for a cheap initial price, but without the needed upgrades the performance will certainly be a lot lower than the typical clan mech.

I would be cautious about the first part of your statement. The meta forces specialization, and that is largely true for Clan and IS. Snowflake (mixed purpose) builds are largely ineffective at higher levels of play.

Your assessment on IS mechs not actually being cheaper is pretty spot on. Though there are a few exceptions for mechs that can get away with using stock engines and components.