12 replies to this topic

[Rkshz]

GH – ghost heat system
ED – energy draw system
LH – locomotion heat system

First of all, we’ve been very surprised, because PGI didn’t announce any competition among the active community for the best idea of a new game mechanic. This would increase people’s trust in PGI and could have more positive result.

We’ve spent a lot of time, testing ED system and found out that this system is ineffective. Why? Because it is “return to the future” back to 2012 year – when the overkill builds with 6 PPC and 6 ERLL, 6 LL and others were the way to go. ED system won’t be able to prevent overkill high range alpha builds, and any additional increase of the heating for large energy weapons will only result in more mechs becoming useless. Or, they should add new quirks. We don’t even want to talk about a scale of the energy status bar. It is one more element in the game interface. So, does PGI want the rookies to get even more confused than they were with ghost heat?

So, we would like to propose our (LHS) system that works according to the PRESENT game mechanic (GH) but without ghost heat and it doesn’t need any customization. Below you can download the Microsoft Excel file, where you can see the argumentation – why LH system will work.

Excel file link

The main idea of LH system is mech heating at set throttle. The heating level depends from the engine rating and the mech tonnage. You can see the exact examples of LH system working in excel file.
(we’ve considered PGI intention to reduce most cooldowns reduction and their Idea to limit the gauss rifles to 2 pieces and to make gauss fire without charging sequence. Therefore, we’ve added heat to the gauss rifles. LH system was created according to these PGI intentions).

LH system argumentation:

* What was the purpose of ED system by PGI?

• To limit the Alpha Strikes.
  
• To create the heat-penalty for more than 2 gauss rifles.
  
• To remove gauss charging sequence, to reduce its range, to slow down its cooldown and add the heating.
  
• To add the energy bar as a new element of the game mechanic and interface.
  
• To improve the gameplay, allow more playable builds and make it more new-player-friendly.

Examples:

• In ED system the energy status bar is the same element of the ghost heat as in GH system, but there is a visual “timer” instead of the virtual 0.3 seconds. But where is the promised cancelling of the ghost heat?

* What does LH system propose?

• it slows down the battle part of the game mechanic
  
• it allows big Alpha Strikes
  
• it discourages big Alpha Strikes
  
• it makes the game process more varied (it is about a control speed; mixed builds become more actual)
  
• it will largely benefit mixed weapons

1. Why do we need to slow down the game?

• to reduce the fatality of the mistakes
  
• for balance proceeding from a low game online, the present matchmaking and dis-balance of the players level
  
• a series of MW games has always been a simulator but not FPS game (First Person Shooter): so, the game mechanic needs more tactical way than the reflexes and sniping skills only

Examples:

• At the moment, the matchmaking brings together +/- 2 tier teams. That is 1 tier can play with 3 tier. This is a big problem, because those teams win which have more high skilled players. And rookies are suffering from the twinks. LH system will slow down the game, and thereby it will stop “2 minutes matches”. This increases a sense of comfort for new and present players, because epic fast loose slash wins become impossible.
  
• In LH system LCT-1E with the speed 154 km (Engine 190) will have 14% heating at set throttle 100%. And AWF-Prime with the speed 48.6 km (Engine 300) will have 17% at set throttle. So, DPS will decrease at the movement. It means, that “push’s” become more tactical and well thought-out, than irrational as it is for now.

2. Why does LH system allow big Alpha Strikes?

• this is a style for certain players
  
• because there are no reasons to forbid
  
• this this is a feature of MWO

Examples:

• Alpha Strikes is a feature of MWO (even in the academy you can teach it), and there are certain players which play using Alpha Strikes only. If one forbids big Alpha Strikes, this will discourage the interested players.
  
• A lot of the stock mech’s in GH system at Alpha Strike have too much heat penalty in accordance with the damage. But the stock mech’s have an authentic (lore) origin. And new players, considering the economic MWO system, use the stock configurations for a long time, and they don’t have a comfort game because of the ghost heat system. This is one more factor of the game unfriendliness.

3. Why does LH system discourage the Alpha Strikes?

• for now, the game doesn’t forbid "big" Alpha Strikes, and it's the overkill

Examples:

• GH system was created so that the Alpha Strike doesn’t become overkill. But for now, Alpha Strikers combine various weapons, proceeding from the penalties and range, but only the skilled players can use this affectively. So, Alpha Strike is still being the overkill, and the game became more hardcore.
  
• LH system punishes the Alpha Strikers, allowing them to shoot at full stop or while moving at low speed.

4. Makes the game process more various:

• due to considering the mech speed (speed control)
  
• increases variety of the relevant mech builds and their using

Examples:

• For now, there are META builds for each variant of the mech’s. In fact, the game became monotonous. New LH system allows returning to the authentic mixed builds without loss of the quality in fight – that is, there won’t be the “unuseful” mech’s.
  
• The stock mech’s and mixed builds become more relevant and playable, because the heating at speed will reduce DPS and mobility for the Alpha Strike META build mech’s.

5. Why LH system “has a right to live” and why it is better than ED system?

• LH system doesn’t need total rework of the game mechanic

Example:

• LH system is based on the present game mechanic, but calculation of the heat level is done proceeding from the additional stats (tonnage, engine, speed). LH system takes present game mechanic (GH), and it doesn’t need serious software customization. This allows avoiding the bugs and resources expenses for the developers. Moreover, a functioning of speed control is already implemented in the game options: “set throttle 10-100%”.

But, as we can see, LH system doesn’t solve all problems.

Heavy and Assaults mech’s with 5+ energy hardpoints can make overkill builds = 5+PPC, 5+LPL, 5+ERLL, 5+LL, receiving the smallest heating – this is the same problem as in the ED system. So, we can see the main point of the problem: these are the mech’s, which hardpoints and tonnage allow using (proceeding from the proper speed and weight) weapons with high range and damage in accordance with a nice cooling and often high Alpha Strike. In this case, these are the mech’s +65 tons with a lot of the energy hardpoints.

Example:

• TDR-5SS with 5ERLL or EBJ's with 5CERLL or KDK-1 with 6CLPL or BNC-3M with 6PPC and others.

Our system allows seeing the same problem that consists in relation to the weapon heat indicator and other mech stats. It is about the mech’s with a high tonnage and a lot of the same type hardpoints.

This problem will exist always, and any of the proposed systems of the balance cannot resolve it, without “touching” other mech’s, which make a comfort game available for the players.

Hardpoint size is the only thing that can make a balanced game.

Examples:
* BEH = big energy hardpoints (erppc, ppc, erll, lpl, ll)
* BBH = big ballistic hardpoints (gauss, ac20, uac20, lb20x)

• based on stock mech builds
  
• or 1-2 BEH and 0 BBH for Lights, 2-3 BEH and 0-1 BBH for Mediums, 3-4 BEH and 1-2 BBH for Heavys, 4-5 BEH and 2-3 BBH for Assaults
  
• or whatever you want

We suggest that PGI have well thought about this and proposed community to balance all mech’s according to the hardpoint size. Only the community has to do it, and only this can help MWO to be a well-balanced and comfort game both for the rookies and for high skilled players.

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And for now, we’d like to offer our vision about what we can add to MWO with the present game mechanic (GH) for Alpha Strikers could not feel comfortably:

Helper for GH system – An increased tremor and shaking of crosshairs (same as with Jump Jets) and noise of HUD when the heating is critical:

• this corresponds to the lore of BT
  
• it corresponds to the previous series of MW games
  
• this corresponds to the video display proceeding from high heating of the video adapter
  
• it makes the game more immersive and atmospheric
  
• for now, turned on "override shutdown" doesn’t tax the players enough (a risk of the structure damage is not enough argument, because a nice heat control allows us to play without shut-down and with the minimal damage) that gives advantage high skilled players
  
• one can explain in the academy, what will happen, if you do “big” Alpha Strike (or overheat) thereby letting know the game mechanic begin from beginning

Example:

• If the critical heating is higher, the active parts of HUD are more distorted. This means that players, which play with the Alpha Strikes and high heating, will face a disadvantage and will have a hard time sniping.

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Creator of LH system: Mokou
Coordination and support: Rakshaz

P.S. Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.

Edited by Rakshaz, 05 September 2016 - 03:02 PM.

[Mokou]

If you have any question about LH system - just ask me here.

Edited by Mokou, 05 September 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Rakshaz, on 05 September 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

1. Why do we need to slow down the game?

• to reduce the fatality of the mistakes
  
• for balance proceeding from a low game online, the present matchmaking and dis-balance of the players level
  
• a series of MW games has always been a simulator but not FPS game (First Person Shooter): so, the game mechanic needs more tactical way than the reflexes and sniping skills only

Your points here conflict, and thus your base premise cannot improve the game. If your goal is to produce a game where tactics, and the associated mechanics thereof, take precidence over pure "twitch" skillsets, then emphasizing the fatality of mistakes is paramount. By allowing players to make mistakes and not be punished for those mistakes, you deemphasize the need for superior tactics. Moreover, such a notion only serves to improve the viability of long range sniping and "peek-and-poke" playstyles.

Beyond that, reducing the level of combat to the least common denominator, which I assume reducing the emphasis on skill and tactics aims to use to provide the second bullet of your statement, will only drive the game further away from "simulation" and "tactical."

Ultimately, you really want MWO to be MORE punishing if you want to play up the "tactical" angle.

[davoodoo]

I hate to break it to you, but simulators are usually first person and if they are simulating fighting in war they are first person shooters.

Arma is fps the same way that battlefield is fps.

But the thing is, idk what you propose and tbh i dont care enough to download excel files and go through it.
I care little for your attempts at argumentation if i dont know what youre argumenting for.

Edited by davoodoo, 05 September 2016 - 03:57 PM.

[Muyou]

I’ve read, a little understood (it’s too much text). I’m sorry.
But my opinion: Alpha Strike is the biggest trouble created for MWO by PGI. According to “lore” and other series MW/BT games – Alpha Strike was “the last chance” and used not often.
So, I think that Hardpoint Sizes solve all problems with Alpha Strikes and critical heat.
“Noise of HUD” is great idea. But Hardpoint Sizes – first of all

[cazidin]

I picked the most 80's version of this song that I could find on the first page.

[Rkshz]

cazidin, on 13 September 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

Spoiler

I picked the most 80's version of this song that I could find on the first page.

ty dude, need more

[Khobai]

Quote

If your goal is to produce a game where tactics, and the associated mechanics thereof, take precidence over pure "twitch" skillsets, then emphasizing the fatality of mistakes is paramount.

game needs to focus more on strategy than tactics at the 12v12 level IMO

tactics are more for lance vs lance fights

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 13 September 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

game needs to focus more on strategy than tactics at the 12v12 level IMO

tactics are more for lance vs lance fights

Strategy=means to win the war
tactics=means to win the battle

Whatever you do in your hangar and with how you set up your mechs is strategy.
Everything that happens within match is tactics.

Edited by davoodoo, 13 September 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Rkshz]

davoodoo, on 13 September 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

Strategy=means to win the war
tactics=means to win the battle

Whatever you do in your hangar and with how you set up your mechs is strategy.
Everything that happens within match is tactics.

you're right
but the question is what a strategy and tactics we have in MWO now =
1. Strategy - in MechLab you create a Alpha Strike build
2. Tactics - in game you play Alpha Strike style

so we have Alpha Strike Shooter game... but MWO should be simulator game at first, and Shooter at last - not the other way!

Edited by Rakshaz, 13 September 2016 - 03:16 PM.

[davoodoo]

Rakshaz, on 13 September 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

you're right
but the question is what a strategy and tactics we have in MWO now =
1. Strategy - in MechLab you create a Alpha Strike build
2. Tactics - in game you play Alpha Strike style

so we have Alpha Strike Shooter game... but MWO should be simulator game at first, and Shooter at last - not the other way!

There is hardly tactic in 1 unit firing its weapons...

Strategy is setting up number of mechs which will drop, their weaponry(so you wont drop 12 lurm boats), preparing enough scout, jump jet mechs, ecm bubbles and so on. Adjusting drop decks/premade quick play groups.

Tactics are setting up plan to use those mechs, sending jump jets on high spots, scouting, flanking, calling targets or most popular tactic in mwo, deathball rush...

And idk if you got memo, but laservomit isnt meta for quite some time now...
It got replaced entirely by dakka with kdk3 release and later by ppfld.

Edited by davoodoo, 13 September 2016 - 03:35 PM.

[DGTLDaemon]

At a glance, the biggest problem with the proposed LH system is that it will encourage static gameplay. Due to the current match scoring system, most players tend to be damage-centric, because you get the most benefits (c-bills, xp) from the damage you've dealt to the enemy mechs. Therefore, people will prefer moving as little as possible to maximize their damage output. That means POKING and TRADING, and trades will always be won by those with better reflexes and hand-to-eye coordination. This defeats the purpose of making the game friendlier to new/less skilled/less "professional" players.

Secondly, on a team scale, the current system always offers the tactical choice between sitting in one place and trading or gathering into a deathball and rushing the enemy. Making the right choice at the right moment in the match can bring you victory or result in a devastating loss. The proposed LH system will take away that choice, once again forcing everyone to proceed slowly and carefully, and making surprise rushes virtually impossible. The "epic fast loose slash wins" that you were referring to usually result from one team sitting on their a$$es and doing nothing, while the other team gets their sh*t together and rolls them. And I personally see nothing wrong with that.

To sum it up, mobility is an essential element of gameplay, but firepower is an essential element of earning a living in the MWO universe. If you force players to choose between mobility and firepower, you already know what they will choose. And the game will not benefit from that choice.

Quote

Helper for GH system – An increased tremor and shaking of crosshairs (same as with Jump Jets) and noise of HUD when the heating is critical

And this might actually be a good idea Will make you think twice before going into the override mode.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 15 September 2016 - 07:27 AM.

[Mokou]

DGTLDaemon, on 15 September 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

To sum it up, mobility is an essential element of gameplay, but firepower is an essential element of earning a living in the MWO universe. If you force players to choose between mobility and firepower, you already know what they will choose. And the game will not benefit from that choice.

The main point of our topic is: ANY heat-based balance system will not work. Heat-based balance is dead end.
But, thanks for the advice.