Tombs Clawtooth, on 06 September 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:
So what I take from what has been said so far...
Ballistics have superior sustained DPS.
I guess I should ditch my UACs for regular ACs as it feels like the UACs decide to skip their cool down randomly without much control over it. Yes, even when simply holding the fire key for the group. That has made it rather unappealing to rely on.
It has been exceptionally frustrating on the EBJ build as my primary means of DPS goes out the window randomly.
Would switching to a standard AC20 be a highly ill advised move or a good idea?
If standart AC20 referes to Clan nonultra AC20 yes this would be stupid since clan "standart" ACs have the same numbers as ultra. (they are placeholders for slug shot ammo of LBXACs, PGI is just too lazy or inapt to implement this weapon correctly)
UACs do not jam randomly. They only jam when double tabed.
To clarify. If you click and hold without interruption a UAC it will fire, reload and fire again. Without jamming.
If the AC is triggered a second time while its reload is not compleated it can fire again with a certain chance to jam.
The Dps that could go out of the window with UACs is the additional dps from doubletapping.
Edited by The Basilisk, 06 September 2016 - 06:17 AM.
UACs should be consistent (and non-jammy) if you hold the button down. Maybe a bug or a hardware issue?
The only reason to go AC/5 over UAC/5 is if you really need that 1 extra ton or 1 extra slot that the UAC takes. Otherwise, you may as well get the UAC for the situational DPS increase.
I think I'm the only person to see some value in the "old" AC20 etc. Which is why I use the LBX.
And it about something Koniving touched on...Face time.
For instance, I love the C ER LL. My accuracy is over 80% with it. BUT, it takes a "long time" to complete it's fire, 1.5 seconds. And during those 1.5 seconds, someone with an AC10 or an LBX 10 can fire and drop back away. There are times that because of overwhelming return fire, I have to torso twist or turn away. One problem with this, besides me not doing close to full damage is that i have to be careful around teammates since that laser is still firing.
I do not have the math for it but I'm sure an AC 10 or an LBX 10 fires faster than a UAC 10 does. So I can fire and gt back sooner.
And again, I "believe" that an AC 10 will shot further than an LBX 10 because of the spread of the LBX 10. I'm sure I'm wrong but.......I normally am....So I'm used to it....
LikeUntoGod, on 06 September 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:
I think I'm the only person to see some value in the "old" AC20 etc. Which is why I use the LBX.
And it about something Koniving touched on...Face time.
For instance, I love the C ER LL. My accuracy is over 80% with it. BUT, it takes a "long time" to complete it's fire, 1.5 seconds. And during those 1.5 seconds, someone with an AC10 or an LBX 10 can fire and drop back away. There are times that because of overwhelming return fire, I have to torso twist or turn away. One problem with this, besides me not doing close to full damage is that i have to be careful around teammates since that laser is still firing.
I do not have the math for it but I'm sure an AC 10 or an LBX 10 fires faster than a UAC 10 does. So I can fire and gt back sooner.
And again, I "believe" that an AC 10 will shot further than an LBX 10 because of the spread of the LBX 10. I'm sure I'm wrong but.......I normally am....So I'm used to it....
C-LB10X (2.50) and C-UAC10 (2.50) fire at the same rate according to smurfy.
C-AC10 (2.90)
And I guess I have another hardware issue... I figured the thing just had a random chance of double firing even if held down. I've never noticed this behavior out of my mouse in any other game.
I should specify that all my comments are dealing with clan mechs, I don't have any IS mechs yet so I have no experience with any of their equipment.
Edited by Tombs Clawtooth, 06 September 2016 - 07:08 AM.
There are delays between the 5 through 20 in MWO's Clan ACs.
All three are 0.17 or less between each bullet. Cool down will not begin until after all shots are fired, thus giving the LB-X a slight advantage.
My experience as trying to load two Dire Wolfs with assult class weapons, is that ballistic are "OP".
Not too OP but so OP, you can't make effective energy only Dire Wolf. You can have not only enough energy weapons, you could also have twice too much energy weapons, but you can't carry enough heatsinks, for example with 6xC ER L lasers you can have total of 20+10 heatsinks but you'd still be left with like 8 tons of pod space with no slots left for anything.
So you need to pack ballistic weapons alongside with energy to be able to use your full 100 tons, having omnimech is disadvatage here as you can't beef up the engine. I'd so much prefer to have C ER L lasers mainly but it's not effective.
Things like C UAC 20 coupled with C LBX 20 or C UAC 10 weapons is really really powerful, you don't need to stare other assults long until they die.
I've literally ran about all kinds of Dire Wolfs but something like 4x ER L with some hard hitting ballistic is the most effective. 6xER L laser builds can sometimes be wonderful. My most memorable game was the first one wit 6x C ER L. Enemy did not attack at all so I could zap them from range for over 10 minutes. Our team was slowly attacing them which is also why I could keep on shooting them. Normally the game boils down faster so that the other side gets an advantage and rolls over. I think I've so far not been able to surpass that about 1300+ damage I did then.
If you got big enough mech try different weapons out, that's how you can really learn the stuff. Energy weapons are great too, specially on smaller mechs, but on heavies and assults you need to use at least some ballistics.
Tombs Clawtooth, on 06 September 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:
So what I take from what has been said so far...
Ballistics have superior sustained DPS.
I guess I should ditch my UACs for regular ACs as it feels like the UACs decide to skip their cool down randomly without much control over it. Yes, even when simply holding the fire key for the group. That has made it rather unappealing to rely on.
It has been exceptionally frustrating on the EBJ build as my primary means of DPS goes out the window randomly.
Would switching to a standard AC20 be a highly ill advised move or a good idea?
Please note that you do not ever want to equip a C-AC over a C-UAC.
Clan regular autocannons still fire in bursts like the clan Ultra autocannons, but doesnt have the ability to double tap... And also have other negatives (like taking up more space, or firing at a slower rate). Also note, you dont have to double tap clan UACs if you dont want to jam.
Inner Sphere ACs versus Uac5 are both good weapon systems, so equip what you like.
Tombs Clawtooth, on 06 September 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:
So what I take from what has been said so far...
Ballistics have superior sustained DPS.
I guess I should ditch my UACs for regular ACs as it feels like the UACs decide to skip their cool down randomly without much control over it. Yes, even when simply holding the fire key for the group. That has made it rather unappealing to rely on.
It has been exceptionally frustrating on the EBJ build as my primary means of DPS goes out the window randomly.
Would switching to a standard AC20 be a highly ill advised move or a good idea?
Do not use "standard" Clan Autocannons. If you look at Smurfy's Awesome Weapon Tables, you may notice that the tonnage and space characteristics of these guns match the LB-X series autocannons exactly. This is because they were originally added to the game only as a temporary measure. Clan LB-X Autocannons were able, in tabletop, to swap between the shotgun and normal types of ammunition, which was a huge boost to their flexibility. PGI was working on getting the game to do the same thing, and added the Standard ACs as a stop-gap - basically, players couldn't swap, but could choose to use the normal ammo in a way. However, PGI ran into some kind of major roadblock in completing the system, and the project is now on hold with no guarantee of completion; essentially, it seems that they'd like to do it but the cost/benefit of exploring a way around the roadblock isn't good enough as things stand. The Standard ACs remain, however - and are essentially a substandard compromise between the Ultra and LB-X series weapons.
The Ultra Autocannons you are using are not skipping their cooldowns, though - they're jamming. This is a designed drawback to using the weapons, and in general it is worth it. If you wish to avoid firing in ultra mode, simply hold down the button and the autocannon will only fire when its primary cooldown cycle. Also try to avoid clicking more than once when firing your second shot: clicking rapidly will occasionally cause the AC to jam without firing the jamming shot as it is supposed to (I suspect that this is caused by some kind of mismatch in server v. client-side authorization, but I'm not programmer enough to be sure, and I digress.)
You should also take into account whether or not you've gotten through the Elite tiers in your 'mech skill trees for the Ebon Jaguar. When I first adopted the chassis, I was afraid I'd made a mistake. However, getting the doubled Basics from completing the Elite tier made a huge difference, with the increased cooling, mobility (from Speed Tweak,) and heat capacity transforming marginal builds into good ones - and the 'mech along with them. Currently my favorite is This One; while I do have another build In The Hangar, it doesn't work as well as my first build, and I'll likely repurpose it for longer-ranged combat. I was mostly testing out the LB-Xs' buffed spread a while back and never changed the build.
Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 06 September 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:
Please note that you do not ever want to equip a C-AC over a C-UAC.
Clan regular autocannons still fire in bursts like the clan Ultra autocannons, but doesnt have the ability to double tap... And also have other negatives (like taking up more space, or firing at a slower rate). Also note, you dont have to double tap clan UACs if you dont want to jam.
Inner Sphere ACs versus Uac5 are both good weapon systems, so equip what you like.
He said he was having issues where the UACs would fire during their cooldown even when he doesn't want them to, and since he uses UAC/20s that can be a devastating amount of heat when it 'accidentally' goes off, especially if he has two of them. I actually wouldn't blame him if he did go with the regular Clan AC/20s. (My god do they sound better in the audio department!)
ACs as placeholders do have some advantages over UACs... as well as some flaws. The "AC" is a little bigger slot-wise. There's also the lower heat (6 units equal to the IS AC/20 instead of 7 units). The benefit this has especially if you're the type that says "**** you ghost heat" is quite phenomenal.
Void Angel, on 06 September 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:
The Ultra Autocannons you are using are not skipping their cooldowns, though - they're jamming. This is a designed drawback to using the weapons, and in general it is worth it. If you wish to avoid firing in ultra mode, simply hold down the button and the autocannon will only fire when its primary cooldown cycle. Also try to avoid clicking more than once when firing your second shot: clicking rapidly will occasionally cause the AC to jam without firing the jamming shot as it is supposed to (I suspect that this is caused by some kind of mismatch in server v. client-side authorization, but I'm not programmer enough to be sure, and I digress.)
I think the guy is aware of this. He specifically stated "Yes, even when simply holding the fire key for the group." Meaning he knows how to avoid the jam. I take it as -- for some reason -- the UACs on his rig will double tap even when he doesn't want them to, which can of course jam them.
Also the above mentioned colder benefits of the AC/20 and AC/10 over the UACs at the cost of an extra slot.
Last edit:
UAC/20 and LBX 20.
AC/20 takes up an extra slot like the LBX-20, but shoots at one unit colder. The multiplicative effects of Ghost Heat by extension, are much softer on the AC/20 than the UAC/20.
Though honestly, just use the LBX-20.... depending on the mech.
If on a Hellbringer, it's basically a single slug up to about 300 meters.
Quote at end of Hellbringer versus Hellbringer:
"All CT damage. Those LBXs have no spread."
I think the guy is aware of this. He specifically stated "Yes, even when simply holding the fire key for the group." Meaning he knows how to avoid the jam. I take it as -- for some reason -- the UACs on his rig will double tap even when he doesn't want them to, which can of course jam them.
Hrm, I missed that; I wonder if it might not be some kind of packet loss interacting with HSR and the jam system.
Tombs, try calling your internet provider and telling them that you're seeing signs of an unstable connection when you're playing games, and ask them to check your up- and down-stream. Their tech support should be able to see that.
In any case, I'd still recommend an LB-X over a standard AC.
Void Angel, on 06 September 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:
Hrm, I missed that; I wonder if it might not be some kind of packet loss interacting with HSR and the jam system.
Tombs, try calling your internet provider and telling them that you're seeing signs of an unstable connection when you're playing games, and ask them to check your up- and down-stream. Their tech support should be able to see that.
In any case, I'd still recommend an LB-X over a standard AC.
Hahahahahaha.... It took 3 years of petitioning this ISP to run lines to this house, I was on satellite internet before this because the alternative was dialup.
The installer said it's a miracle I can get internet here without it dropping constantly. I've repeatedly hounded them about 100ms pings to servers no more than 20 miles away but they continue to say that up to 400ms is all they will insure, and if it gets that high, they'll just cancel my service because they won't be able to assure quality.
The LBX20 sounds like an interesting plan. Is an LBX20 ebon jaguar competitive or just a waste? It sounds like giggles all around regardless.
Ewwww. Well at least you know what the problem is; it fits my loose hypothesis that the jam system isn't checking against the cooldown mechanism to see if the UAC has fired before it rolls for a jam.
In any case, I've enjoyed the LB-X Build I linked earlier, but the higher DPS of the SRM Equivalent feels much better to me.
You might need to replace a ton of that SRM ammo for a bigger Targeting Computer or something if you like - I built the ammo load to operate in Faction Play.
The way I see this is ... yes, energy weapons are very light for their damage output, but you can only boat so many of them until heat tends to become an issue.
At that point, if you still want to dish out more damage, you're better off adding a low-heat weapon (missiles/ballistics) which has a decent range-bracket synergy with your energy weapons.
For example, while the AC/20 may look horribly heavy, AC/20 + 4xML is only a little bit heavier. And it still generates very moderate amounts of heat compared to an energy boat.
Oftentimes, the ideal solution to dealing a lot of damage -- but at regular intervals, not limited by heat -- is a nice combination of weapon types.
First and foremost and you might find this interesting; you're using the Clan weights which are lighter than the IS weights.
So here we go.
MWO compared to Battletech got the following kinda right in terms of implementation:
Lasers.
LBX.
ER PPCs (but not regular)
Gauss Rifle.
...and that's it.
Also I remind you "Kinda right." As in not completely right.
Lets start with the ballistic family.
The first thing that's off here is that MWO ceremoniously uses Rifles and not Autocannons. That is to say Russ the CEO wanted huge guns that make a big bang, and so they fire like tanks. There's also technical reasons for this related to server and hitreg issues. But from a lore standpoint autocannons are just wrong in how they are front loaded in their damage. This of course is how they get their edge from lasers -- unless you're using the Clan versions which are kinda-sorta closer to actual autocannons.
The difference between an AC/2 and an AC/20 in Battletech lore isn't that the AC/20 fires bigger bullets -- though this is generally true we will instead compare the GM Whirlwind/L AC/2s of the Blackjack [30mm] with the Pontiac 100 AC/20 (also 30mm, though models exist at 40mm but lets stick with 30mm for this explanation for simplicity), so bringing us back to the point of the difference between an AC/2 and an AC/20 -- is that the AC/20 fires 10 times faster than the AC/2, thus cutting its range significantly while spiking large amounts of heat. MWO has it the other way around and rewards the AC/2 with a high firing rate that used to allow it to outclass the DPS of the AC/10...
leading to this problem.
The Rifles I mentioned before are your literal tank cannons that we know in our real world. The smallest one has a very limited accurate range and the largest one has a much further range; a combination of both propulsion (speed), size and thus gun powder and damage, as well as other factors like a bigger more accurate barrel. They are also obsolete as they have a Barrier Armor Rating of 8, and most Mechs and combat oriented tanks have a BAR of 10, causing them to lose effectiveness against Mech Armor. That aside though, the Heavy Rifle which is the largest of the family does 6 effective damage against 'Mechs, has an 'expected accurate' range of 540 (which in BT is identical to the AC/5 range), and a real range of 3,000+ meters. The only example with a given caliber size is 190mm. It also manages a single shot within 4 to 5 seconds making for a maximum of 2 shots per ten second time slice in tabletop, at the risk of breaking the gun.
The average universal size of AC is 120mm and encompasses AC/5s, 10s, and 20s. A GM-brand Whirlwind/5, mounted on the Marauder 3R -- which is supposed to be mounted on a turret but can't due to lawsuits with copyrighted art back in the 1980s to 1990s -- can fire a "Painfully slow" 3-4 shots per second, requiring a total of 3 shots to deliver 5 damage, and can manage a maximum of 2 seconds of sustained fire before the weapon itself overheats to the point that the barrel or feed mechanisms could cause problems and permanently jam at an exceptionally high risk.
The AC/10 of the same caliber can fire at the same rate but longer or twice as fast depending on the manufacturer, requires 6 shots to make 10 damage, and if firing at the same rate as the AC/5 there's no risks of jamming what-so-ever.
A UAC/5 is much lighter than an AC/10 and can do the same thing. Depending on the model it could manage the same rate of fire for 4 seconds or fire twice as much in just 2 seconds. While just a ton more than the AC/5 (on the IS side anyway), it effectively just has a significantly lower chance of a critical failure rendering the weapon inoperable.
The AC/20 -- and there's about a dozen brand names including the King Crab's Deathgiver at 120mm -- fires 12 shots to get its 20 damage. It can fire up to 24 at extremely high risk for a whopping 40 damage in 10 seconds.
What is interesting is that a very specific AC/20, the Chemjet Gun, is stated to be 185mm and is specifically stated to fire 4 bullets per rating in a slow burst. Each of these bullets would do 5 damage. The Heavy Rifle was 190mm and in a single shot does 6 damage (9 damage if not for Mech Armor). The Rifle's maximum possible range is 3,000+ meters. All ACs have the typical range of "about 2,000 meters." However while Rifles shoot few bullets and hardly could manage more than 2 in 10 seconds, autocannons fire lots of shots and some as much as 100 shots per damage rating. Food for thought.
Now consider that Gauss Rifles are supposed to be FLD; one of the very few weapons intended to be.
If one of the biggest AC/20s in existence is only doing 5 damage per bullet...and hat's a machine gun firing shots bigger than this...t
(And for a side note: The Crusher Super Heavy Cannon AC/20 is 150mm and specifically stated to fire 10 shots to get 20 damage).
So when the novels say that the Gauss Rifle will rip a Huge ******* Hole through your mech, and in Battletech tabletop with all the rules will destroy something inside your mech in the process... You won't even get to finish saying "Holy-" before your world got ****** over by a single Gauss Rifle...
hence this Light Mech.
The Hollander. Notice...the size... of that ******* cannon!? Boom *************!
Now consider this:
The Long Tom "tactical nuke" that PGI has depicted in faction warfare that everyone cries about... is horribly misrepresented. It is actually a 30 ton weapon, on a 90 ton setup of a 60 ton vehicle with a maximum speed in the late 20 kph range and several trailers containing cooling equipment and ammunition. The actual total damage it does between direct impact up to total Area of Effect from a single shell.. is 270 damage. MWO's version of it does 1,200 or 1,300 something... down from 1,600+ that it did originally in their first version.
Also keep in mind that the Atlas and Dire Wolf's 608 stock armor in MWO... would be 304 armor in BT. Thus for an MWO-appropriate version we'd need it to do 540 damage per shell.
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PGI MWO's original versions of the Clan lasers required beam durations of up to 2 seconds, but lots of complaints. It is also important to mention the actual damage for IS Large/ER Large and Clan ER Large lasers are supposed to be 8, 8 and 10 damage respectively and their heat is supposed to quite a bit hotter at 8, 9 and 9 heat respectively.
Even so in MWO each laser is doing damage in "Ticks" and each laser has between 4 and 10 ticks. If the tick happens when off target, the damage is completely lost. Switching hitboxes between ticks? Damage could be lost. So to get the real damage you need to hold it on target and in the same spot until the beam is done.
LBX weapons as I've recently learned after a long debate about them with other lore buffs... are a crossbreed of Rifles and Autocannons. Their shells are quite a bit larger with more both a bit more volume and more efficient propellant. Technically LBX shots are supposed to be about 20% faster than AC rounds, delivered with a bit more force... but the real kicker for accuracy, those "pellets" are all supposed to explode like a carpet bombing or cluster missile's secondary munitions for a spectacular light show, which makes missing pretty damn difficult! That's the key reason for the range.
In MWO those are 'full damage ranges'. In Battletech, those are given expected accurate ranges without undue difficulty for the average pilot under combat conditions.
Also keep in mind... Battletech's mechs are a lot smaller than PGI's interpretation (which seems more based on Wizkidz than on FASA). Those accurate ranges account the following: Enemy is likely aware of incoming attack and can block or dodge fire, smoke and other visual difficulties, and general lack of HUD indicators... Yes, 'Mechs have HUDs and yes they did a lot of things. Putting Doritos and squares on targets wasn't a common feature. Keep in mind mechs are generally hundreds of years old.
...Unless you're in a Clan mech.
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Also lasers are supposed to have another huge disadvantage which doesn't exist in MWO.
Atmosphere. Everything from particles of dirt to particles of smoke... Without a perfect vacuum, lasers loose effectiveness for every bit of smoke they have to go through.
Mechs also have consumables of a weight not worth mentioning (less than 0.05 tons) called Anti-Laser Aerosols. Spray this into the air like a smoke screen to severely dampen the damage potential of lasers.
Further, keep in mind about Battletech: Ballistic weapons can be used up to 2 times their stated rate (except Rotary ACs which can be used up to 6 times their normal rate) with some risk. So 4, 10, 20, and 40 damage respectively. Lasers in Battletech could only be used at 1 times their rate: So 3, 5, and 8 damage IS and 3, 6, and 10 damage Clan respectively.
Gauss does a flat 15 either way but in a single blow.
The PPC and ER PPC deliver FLD damage in Battletech, but were highly unsafe weapons and with a Mech Threshold of 30 total heat [not counting cooling], an ER PPC's 15 heat brings you at the point where your movement is affected by 90 meters worth of speed (per 10 seconds or a Speed cut of 32.4 kilometers per hour that you're slowed down after just firing a single ER PPC) and an accuracy penalty of 2 (so the difference in accuracy between an seasoned veteran with several years and dozens of battles and a green rookie stepping into his mech for the very first time)... and 1 unit of heat above the bare minimum 'shutdown' risk. That's for one ER PPC, assuming your heatsinks were turned off.
So yeah. Battletech for ya. Hope that answers a lot.
Dude, i love your explanations as always! Always good to see constructive explanations rather than "I'm right, you're wrong so suck it"!
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Tombs Clawtooth, on 06 September 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:
