20 replies to this topic

[dario03]

So I was looking at Summoners recently so I could decide on which 3 to get and I noticed something. Being Omnimechs the only thing that really matters for the variants is CT hardpoints, locked equipment, and quirks. However on the Summoner there are no hardpoints on any CT and they all have one jump jet and one open crit. So the only thing left is quirks, right? So I decided to take a look at the quirks and figure out which variants would be best for the builds I wanted to make. Typically I try to have all my variants be a decent bit different to get some variety so I was planning on a SRM brawler, a PPC sniper, and wasn't sure on the last one, figured the quirks might help figure that out.

Summoner

Spoiler

base stats
70t Clan heavy Omnimech, 350cxl (87.1kph), variable hardpoints (mostly low mounted), 5jj, torso/arm yaw 100° / 20°, pitch 20° / 30°, armor max 434.
and the quirks
SMN-PRIME Center Torso
Additional Structure Center Torso +11
Energy Weapon Heat Generation -10%
Acceleration +70%
Deceleration +70%
Turn Rate +35%
Speed Modifier +5%
Torso Yaw Speed +40%

SMN-B Center Torso
Additional Structure Center Torso +11
Energy Weapon Heat Generation -10%
Acceleration +70%
Deceleration +70%
Reverse Speed +5%
Turn Rate +35%
Speed Modifier +5%
Torso Yaw Speed +40%
SMN-C Center Torso
Additional Structure Center Torso +11
Energy Weapon Heat Generation -10%
Acceleration +70%
Deceleration +70%
Reverse Speed +5%
Turn Rate +35%
Speed Modifier +5%
Torso Yaw Speed +40%

SMN-D Center Torso
Additional Structure Center Torso +11
Energy Weapon Heat Generation -10%
Acceleration +70%
Deceleration +70%
Reverse Speed +5%
Turn Rate +35%
Speed Modifier +5%
Torso Angle Yaw +9°
Torso Yaw Speed +40%

Notice anything??? Yeah thats right, they are all the same except the B,C,D add 5% reverse speed, and D also adds torso yaw angle. Now there is also the 8/8 bonus you get for not changing omnipods but they all have that and they are all 5% movement type quirks. So basically there is no benefit to running any variant over the D. So...am I missing something here? Is there a reason to run the other variants beyond grinding or events or cbill bonus on certain mechs? Or is the Summoner D just flat out better than the other Summoners for all builds?

And as always I was wondering about balance across the board as well.
For instance here is the Firestarter K

Spoiler

base stats
35T IS light Battlemech, max engine 295 (146.8kph), 8 hardpoints (all low mounted), 6jj max, torso/arm yaw 100° / 25°, pitch 15° / 30°, armor max 238.
And these are the quirks
Flamer Range +15%
Energy Weapon Range +10%
Laser Duration -10%

Compared to the Summoner the quirks seem a bit lacking to say the least. Without quirks the Firestarter is giving up a good amount of armor and firepower. Then once you add the quirks to the Summoner it gets even worse because while both the Firestarters and Summoner's weapons get a little bit better, the Summoner gets a bit more armor and more importantly a lot more mobile. And mobility is supposed to be the Firestarters strength (despite its bad back).
Now top speed is good for the Firestarter if you put ~43% of weight to the ISXL engine for max speed (compared to the Summoners ~31% CXL) But mobility isn't just top speed and with quirks the difference doesn't seem to be that much, when considering everything that is given up... only about 20% for yaw and 30% for turn speed. And that’s with max engine, if you actually use the same weight percentage for engines it gets a lot worse. The Firestarter wouldn’t even be able to have 10 engine heatsinks so you would have to put a heatsink outside of the engine taking up crits and giving lower performance, you would also only be 21kph faster than the Summoner and actually slower in turning and twisting…but even if we ignore that and assume max engine the mobility difference just doesn’t seem that big.
And then just look at the massive 70% accel/decel of the Summoner compared to the non-existent mobility quirks on the Firestarter. To me that just doesn't seem balanced, especially now that the Firestarter is a good bit bigger and thus loss some of its advantage of being harder to hit.

Or we could look at a IS heavy to compare.
Grasshopper 5P

Spoiler

base stats
70T IS heavy Battlemech, max engine 340 (84.6kph), 8 hardpoints (low high mix), 4jj max, torso/arm yaw 120° / 30°, pitch 20° / 30°, armor max 434.
and the quirks
Additional Structure Center Torso +20
Additional Structure L/R Arm +10
Additional Structure L/R Torso +14
Additional Structure L/R Leg +14
Energy Weapon Range +10%
Laser Duration -15%
<Acceleration +35%
Deceleration +35%
Turn Rate +15%
Torso Yaw Speed +35%

Has the same weapon range quirk as the Firestarter, slightly better duration quirk, and much much better quirks in just about everything else.
Extra structure on everything but the head compared to no extra structure.
Good accel/decel quirks compared to no accel/decel quirks.
Little bit of turn rate compared to no turn rate.
Good yaw speed quirk on top of already having better yaw angle.
Basically the only thing the Firestarter has going for it, is its natural benefits of being a smaller target, and faster. Oh and a flamer range quirk...
The grasshopper also has all of its natural benefits of more armor/structure, more firepower, better mounts, and then added to it a lot of extra structure, better improved weapons, and nicely improved mobility.

So yeah, like the title says. Can somebody explain quirk logic to me... Why are some variants just flat out better? And why do some mechs have so much better quirks than mechs that they are arguably already better than?

[Toothless]

Logic and quirks? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

[Revis Volek]

Welcome to Power Creep, been ruining games for a decade plus.

Edited by Revis Volek, 07 September 2016 - 11:00 AM.

[ColdPsyker1]

welcome to quirkland, where PGI added a ballistic quirk to a mech with no ballistic hard points; AND THEN LEFT IT LIKE THAT FOR MONTHS

[Metus regem]

That's how they do quirks.....

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 07 September 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

That's how they do quirks.....

The Dartboard of Destiny.

[jaxjace]

I think its more like a wheel of fortune thing, Spin! aaaaaaaanddd LASER DURATION **** YEA!!!

Spin! aaaaaaaaaandddd MG cooldown 25 percent FUCCCKKKKKKKK!!!!!!

[dervishx5]

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

You mentioned logic, in reference to MWO?

[Khobai]

quirks started out with good intentions. to differentiate otherwise similar mechs.

the problems occurred when PGI started using quirks as a replacement for core game balance.

for example, using structure quirks to try to balance the difference between a CXL and ISXL engine

it wouldve made far more sense to just make CXL and ISXL the same like they were in previous mechwarrior games... rather than having lopsided structure quirks everywhere.

quirks were only ever meant for adding slight variations to mechs. they never shouldve been used to try to balance core systems like clan tech vs IS tech.

Edited by Khobai, 07 September 2016 - 11:06 AM.

[dervishx5]

Khobai, on 07 September 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

it wouldve made far more sense to just make CXL and ISXL the same like they were in previous mechwarrior games... rather than having lopsided structure quirks everywhere.

Oh boy here we go again!

[Mcgral18]

dervishx5, on 07 September 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Oh boy here we go again!

Not necessarily the same...but normalization would have prevented many quirks, and helped those instagibbed Light robots, and unfortunate hitboxes of others.



And at the same time, find salvation for the STD, and put the structure quirks THERE

[dervishx5]

Mcgral18, on 07 September 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Not necessarily the same...but normalization would have prevented many quirks, and helped those instagibbed Light robots, and unfortunate hitboxes of others.



And at the same time, find salvation for the STD, and put the structure quirks THERE

Maybe. But you see, there's a flaw in your logic here:

That would require actual work.

[PhoenixFire55]

Credit goes here ...

[Mcgral18]

dervishx5, on 07 September 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

Maybe. But you see, there's a flaw in your logic here:

That would require actual work.

Again, not really


It would require NotePad...damn, that's never going to happen.



(Of course, I don't ACTUALLY know what it would require, but the existing code base is there, so it would be copying and pasting some items. Just as Omnipods can give quirks, or BAP sensor buffs, engine could be given Structure buffs, and sidesToDie can be adjusted)

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 September 2016 - 11:16 AM.

[dervishx5]

Mcgral18, on 07 September 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

Again, not really


It would require NotePad...damn, that's never going to happen.

Dude that takes like a whole menu search and 2 clicks to open. That's valuable drinking time.

[FupDup]

One of the rules of quirks is that lights have to have weak quirks, even when stronger ones are very warranted for the chassis.

Quirks must also be a multitude of watered-down small values rather than a small number of bigger values that can specialize or distinguish a mech. For example, You get -5% missile spread and +5% missile cooldown instead of -10% missile spread that would actually be helpful.

Quirks must always be purely generic/broad rather than specific so that players can exploit the current meta weapon of choice rather than choose a mech based on its designated specialty or role. Every mech has to fulfill every role.

Edited by FupDup, 07 September 2016 - 11:32 AM.

[Revis Volek]

dervishx5, on 07 September 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Dude that takes like a whole menu search and 2 clicks to open. That's valuable drinking time.

Sounds like alcohol abuse and neglect if you ask me.


Less time working is more time f*%king around ya know?!

[knight-of-ni]

What is your name?
Sir Robin of Camelot.

What is your quest?
To seek the Holy Grail.

What Is The Logic Behind What Mechs Get What Quirks?
What? I don't know that! Arrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

knnniggett, on 07 September 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

What Is The Logic Behind What Mechs Get What Quirks?

Clans? or Inner Sphere?

lol