37 replies to this topic

[xTrident]

Davers, on 08 September 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

So you would prefer to go against Tier 5 players again so you can feel better?

If you read my original comment I said at first I felt like I was useless or couldn't compete in tier 2. It's "okay" now but the stomps are still very relevant for either side. My point was playing with tier 1 to tier 5, or you know - everyone when I was in tier 3 made for much better competitive matches. Much less rolls.

Edited by xTrident, 08 September 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[Dale Grible]

Someone forgot to mention pgi said that psr is a xp bar and everyone will eventually be tier 1.

Im tier 3 and it sucks. I play like a tier 4 cos i dont have the time to "git gud". Between work, wife, 2 kids, and a potatoe laptop i get a couple hours a week. Im decent enough to carry my weight but i cant carry yours.

MM needs an overhaul. Just lookback at last 30 games or 40 and get matched from there by weight class. "Hes in a stalker, shoot, put him with t5s and make him carry." "Lolz, he brought a trebuchet, what a moron, he is now tier 5"

i.e. im better in assaults than meds so pair me accordingly

[Appogee]

Revis Volek, on 08 September 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Wow, so much work trying to break rules and go against the CoC, why not just get gud?

Because potatoes need to be carried.

I'm now on my 5th match today where I have top scored for my team but my team has lost.

This isn't matchmaking. It's being forced to lose, repeatedly.

Edited by Appogee, 08 September 2016 - 12:12 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Appogee, on 08 September 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

Because potatoes need to be carried.

I'm now on my 5th match today where I have top scored for my team but my team has lost.

This isn't matchmaking. It's being forced to lose, repeatedly.

Thats because you are currently a blooming onion in a sea of potatoes.

You are their only shining light and PGI is just telling you to carry harder.

[xTrident]

Revis Volek, on 08 September 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

You gimp yourself when taking groups over 6 or being a small group and NOT taking all the tonnage available for your group.

That little green number at the bottom, make sure it says 0 before you drop or prepare to be out tonned.


Dude, reading comprehension seems to be lost on you today. You should re read his last post he clearly says he DOESNT wanna play with T5's. How you think that means the opposite is beyond me.

I want to play with/against everyone. Davers is taking my problem being in tier 2 which should mean I don't play with/against tier 5 players to mean I strictly want to play against tier 5 players.... Because you know, they might be new to the game/not as good. And that's not what I'm saying. I said being in tier 3 presumably being paired with every tier granted the MM worked correctly is where I the best and most competitive matches.

Like you I don't understand how such a statement means I want to fight just tier 5 players to "feel better".

Edited by xTrident, 08 September 2016 - 12:22 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

as best as I understand it, here is how matchmiker works, as has already been mentioned there are significant diferances from solo to group queue

Solo Queue
the matchmaker tries to put 12 players of the same PSR level on both teams, with the same combined tonage if after x seconds (I think x = 30) it has not found a match it activates a release valve and loosens the requirements, and keeps loosening them every x seconds until 5 minutes, at which time if it has not found you a match tonnage matching is extremely wide and you can be up against players of up-to 3 consecutive tiers, so 1-3, 2-4 or 3-5
now here is where it gets a bit confusing, lets say there are 1,000 t3 players in the queue and they are getting matches in a few seconds, and there is a single t1 player who has been waiting for more t1 or t2 players for 4 minutes and 59 seconds, at the 5 minute mark he is put up against t3 players who may have only been in the queue for 5 seconds.

Group Queue
when you group up for group queue you have a tonnage limit based on the size of the group, a 2 player group can take between 20 and 100 tons per Mech, with the tonnage range narrowing for each additional Mech, I am pretty sure a 4 player group has 37.5 and 85 tons per Mech ^{(my lance cannot run 4 Lights but can run 2 35 tonners and 2 40 tonners, and has often ran 2 Warhammers, with 2 100 tonners)} and a 12 player group has, if I remember correctly ^{(it has been a while since I was last in a 12 player group)}, an average of 50 tons per Mech to counter the advantage of better coordination,
so if 6 groups of 2 players come up against a 12 player group the 6x2 team could literally have double the tonnage of the 12, but the 12 will likely be better organised, countering out most of the disadvantage
as for skill based matchmaking the matchmaker averages out the level for each group, and tries to put teams up against teams with a similar average, however this is complicated by the need to find groups of players who can form a 12 player team, tonnage only plays a part if the group sizes are identical on both teams, and even then that would be something which is quickly disregarded after the first matchmaker release valve.

Faction Play
the matchmaker puts together 12 players for invasion or 4 for scouting, that is all the faction play matchmaker does, there is no skill based or tonnage based matchmaking in faction play

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 08 September 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Davers]

Revis Volek, on 08 September 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

You gimp yourself when taking groups over 6 or being a small group and NOT taking all the tonnage available for your group.

That little green number at the bottom, make sure it says 0 before you drop or prepare to be out tonned.


Dude, reading comprehension seems to be lost on you today. You should re read his last post he clearly says he DOESNT wanna play with T5's. How you think that means the opposite is beyond me.

Meh. Maybe I didn't read his post close enough. But most people asking for the removal of skill based matching aren't doing it in hopes of seeing the top players.

[Pilotasso]

This isn't fair, the OP teams had 3 lights and the opponents had only 1!

[Revis Volek]

Davers, on 08 September 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

Meh. Maybe I didn't read his post close enough. But most people asking for the removal of skill based matching aren't doing it in hopes of seeing the top players.

You do have a point there sir, i think we can all agree that some if not most have nefarious ideas as their motives.

I for one welcome all comers, but i sure feel bad when its 12-0 wipe in less then 2 mins.

Edited by Revis Volek, 08 September 2016 - 02:31 PM.

[xTrident]

Davers, on 08 September 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

Meh. Maybe I didn't read his post close enough. But most people asking for the removal of skill based matching aren't doing it in hopes of seeing the top players.

You should re-read what I said because I clearly stated a number of things the current MM lacks in grouping players - all skill based. It's in my first comment... I'm not asking for the removal of skill based match making. It's quite the contrary, I WANT a match maker that matches skill. But if we're not going to get it, and it's pretty ******* obvious we're not I'd rather not have anything. That's my point.

[Vasili Kerensky]

I'm with the OP in that I believe that a totally random group would be better than the current MM matches. At Tier 5, 2 out of 3 matches are undignified stomps of 12 - [0 to 4]. I've read posts at the subreddit and here - like this thread - which describe same thing happening to lower tiers. PGI should terminate this MM algorithm and just let it run randomly.

Also, this thing about balancing class but not tonnage, is one of the two biggest stupidities in this game (the other being the current state of FW). So, players should only play the highest toonage 'mechs in their weight class, else they gimp their team. Sure, there are matches won by LCTs at the end and noone's gonna complain if they see a BNC instead of a 100-tonner or a WHM instead of a 75-tonner, but the logic is unassailable. Either max tonnage in your class or play with a higher chance of defeat.

Just make the MM factor only class and tonnage when building matches and I'm certain that the matches will become fighting battles in their majority instead of stomps.

[N0MAD]

And for every minute of waiting the MM releases valves to get you into a game, so if youre waiting a few minutes for a game,, it just puts everyone waiting in same game... MM what MM...

[SeaLabCaptn]

Mawai, on 08 September 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...courtesy-phone/

No disrespect intended with my edit, your post was great, just wish I could like it again (and again) for that link. Bravo zulu, many thanks!

"Thank you, big green phone, you're the one thing I'm keeping when I torch this dump!"

[TWIAFU]

Davers, on 08 September 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

That's what we have right now, and you don't seem to like it.

This is what happens when people bring a knife to a gun fight.

[Mawai]

xTrident, on 08 September 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

I want to play with/against everyone. Davers is taking my problem being in tier 2 which should mean I don't play with/against tier 5 players to mean I strictly want to play against tier 5 players.... Because you know, they might be new to the game/not as good. And that's not what I'm saying. I said being in tier 3 presumably being paired with every tier granted the MM worked correctly is where I the best and most competitive matches.

Like you I don't understand how such a statement means I want to fight just tier 5 players to "feel better".

However, in tier 3, although you may have matches against any tier .. you should not have had those matches containing players from any tier AT THE SAME TIME. You may have had matches that were all tier 3 most of the time. You might have had matches with tier 3 to 5s and you might have had matches with tiers 1 to 3. However, you would NOT have had matches containing ALL players from tiers 1 to 5 AT THE SAME TIME.

So what you are asking for ... with all players in the same match ... is NOT what you were experiencing in tier 3.

The reason there is so much angst and argument on the forums is because none of us actually has a clue about the ranking of folks in any particular match. So we blame the matchmaker when things don't work out.

According to comments made by PGI some time ago ... MOST matches in the solo queue have player ranks that are close together with only a small difference between the average for both teams and a relatively small spread on each team. This, of course, varies from match to match, by time of day, and is a function of what players are currently available to the matchmaker.

So ... why do you find more stomps in tier 2 than in tier 3? Is it because the matches are less balanced?

Maybe ...but maybe not. Consider that in tier 2 the players are supposedly better and more experienced on average.

What does this MEAN? It means that if someone on your team makes a mistake ... a lance decide to rambo and loses a few for example ... the other team is much MORE likely to push ... spontaneously work together and wipe your team out because one or two folks MADE A MISTAKE. If you think about it, the better the players, the less forgiving the game will be of making mistakes ... of losing a mech or two ... and in MWO you always lose a mech or two since player coordination can always be a problem. Teams that group up, work together and focus fire ... WIN. This should happen more often at higher tiers ... and when the match swings toward one side or the other ... the players know how to take advantage since on average they are more experienced and know what they should be doing. (This is not always the case .. PSR is an XP system so you don't need to be great to make tier 1 ... just average ... but if you get a couple of average folks making a mistake on your team ... the other team is MUCH less likely to let you get away with it at higher tiers BECAUSE there are some great players mixed in with the average ones).

So your tier 3 experience was NOT due to playing against everyone at the same time ... it was due to playing more games that were more forgiving of errors made by team mates. As you move up in tiers or are matched into higher tier games ... the average player in the matches will be a bit better and the games will be less forgiving of mistakes overall ... leading to probably more stomps since one side or the other will probably make a mistake at some point. (On the other hand, if both sides make a mistake or two ... you'll probably get a much more even feeling match).

So your request to play against everyone at the same time is really coming down to ... I want to play against weaker players so that when my team makes a mistake ... the other players in the match will let us get away with it more often.

[xTrident]

Except Mawai that's assuming I and my team are the only ones getting stomped. So once again someone is assuming all I want is - advantage = me. Nope, I just want good games for all. So let me try to clear this up even further. Since getting into tier 2 (and let me repeat again that having gotten used to the play style of I'm assuming better players...? I hold my own just fine now) I started seeing a lot more rolls/stomps. It's still true to this day and it happens on both sides, not just to me/my team.

You can all just assume whatever you want in my case because it's pretty obvious no one is getting that all I want are more competitive games and that's what I got in tier 3.

The other problem is I explained in my first comment what I was told and how I understood the MM worked. My assumption was in tier 3 it was open to the entire player base so I indeed did think I was playing with everyone. You tell me otherwise and then at the end of your statement make it seem like I knew and all I want to do is play against weaker players so it's easier for me when I clearly stated I had already thought I was for a period of time.

If you all think the match maker and PSR are working great, so be it. Tell that to the other 11 players on my team when we get rolled or the other 12 on the opposing team when they get rolled because that's what I see in tier 2. Tier 3 simply lead to much more close competitive matches. My hope is when my PSR bar finally fills up into tier 1 the matches will be more competitive. Time will tell.

Edited by xTrident, 09 September 2016 - 06:03 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

xTrident, on 09 September 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

Except Mawai that's assuming I and my team are the only ones getting stomped. So once again someone is assuming all I want is - advantage = me. Nope, I just want good games for all. So let me try to clear this up even further. Since getting into tier 2 (and let me repeat again that having gotten used to the play style of I'm assuming better players...? I hold my own just fine now) I started seeing a lot more rolls/stomps. It's still true to this day and it happens on both sides, not just to me/my team.

You can all just assume whatever you want in my case because it's pretty obvious no one is getting that all I want are more competitive games and that's what I got in tier 3.

The other problem is I explained in my first comment what I was told and how I understood the MM worked. My assumption was in tier 3 it was open to the entire player base so I indeed did think I was playing with everyone. You tell me otherwise and then at the end of your statement make it seem like I knew and all I want to do is play against weaker players so it's easier for me when I clearly stated I had already thought I was for a period of time.

If you all think the match maker and PSR are working great, so be it. Tell that to the other 11 players on my team when we get rolled or the other 12 on the opposing team when they get rolled because that's what I see in tier 2. Tier 3 simply lead to much more close competitive matches. My hope is when my PSR bar finally fills up into tier 1 the matches will be more competitive. Time will tell.

There are really good MM threads that explain mm out there. The MM has a lot to hand and thankz godz is a computer, and can do calculations very very fast. Like any human it can't possible get the perfect matches. Then their are restrictions and un-restrictions it can do to get a faster match, because faster match is the priority.

All I can say is, do the best you can.

[xTrident]

Vasili Kerensky, on 08 September 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'm with the OP in that I believe that a totally random group would be better than the current MM matches. At Tier 5, 2 out of 3 matches are undignified stomps of 12 - [0 to 4]. I've read posts at the subreddit and here - like this thread - which describe same thing happening to lower tiers. PGI should terminate this MM algorithm and just let it run randomly.

Also, this thing about balancing class but not tonnage, is one of the two biggest stupidities in this game (the other being the current state of FW). So, players should only play the highest toonage 'mechs in their weight class, else they gimp their team. Sure, there are matches won by LCTs at the end and noone's gonna complain if they see a BNC instead of a 100-tonner or a WHM instead of a 75-tonner, but the logic is unassailable. Either max tonnage in your class or play with a higher chance of defeat.

Just make the MM factor only class and tonnage when building matches and I'm certain that the matches will become fighting battles in their majority instead of stomps.

I don't honestly know what the point of heavies are? Their lack of maneuverability - which typically isn't much better than assaults, especially something like the Kodiak - and lack of being able to carry as hard as assaults just don't make them all that appealing. I'd rather use an assault for the armor/weaponry or drop down to a medium with noticeably more maneuverability.

BLOOD WOLF, on 09 September 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

There are really good MM threads that explain mm out there. The MM has a lot to hand and thankz godz is a computer, and can do calculations very very fast. Like any human it can't possible get the perfect matches. Then their are restrictions and un-restrictions it can do to get a faster match, because faster match is the priority.

All I can say is, do the best you can.

Agreed. I just feel like I'm being called out after giving the OP my two cents on the matter, to which I thought I explained myself pretty well.