20 replies to this topic

[Biclor Moban]

What I don't under stand about MWO methodology would fill a Olympic swimming pool. I know a little more about war fighting and basic physics.

A couple things bother me about this energy draw mechanic.

1. Why do Weapons that historically have little to no needed energy input use 3/4 what a Laser or PPC uses? I mean the only reason we don't have big lasers on the field now is the huge amount of electricity needed. An artillery piece needs 5-10kw generator for aiming.... Mechs are generating 100MW+. Autocannons, Missles, and Machine guns use almost no power when fired and only used a small amount when reloading. I would make more sense to have those a 1/4 draw during the whole cooldown until reloaded. The wouldn't even use that much but they all create recoil so the myomers have to do more work. In addition they are already limited by ammo no need to nerf then more by including them in this energy mechanic.

2. Maybe I am not understanding this but how is it that this mechanic is not tied to Mech size and engine size.(added. What I am saying here is their size and relation to each other) So lets say I am running a XL255 in a Hunchback and my top speed is 88.8 mph and i switch the to a XL275 and my top speed is 95.4 mph that means I have more available power does it not, so it also should mean I have higher energy capacity and recoup rate. That said if I put the same XL275 in a Thunderbolt I expect my available energy would be less not the same. It doesn't seem like MWO is using any logic in doing this.... or am I misunderstanding?

MWO has historically been billed as a "Simulator" and every balancing step PGI takes gets us further and farther away from this core. How may more nonsensical changes are going to be made to this game for the sake of balancing?

Whine is done for now.

Edited by Biclor Moban, 12 September 2016 - 07:20 PM.

[MechaBattler]

It's not literally energy. It's just a misleading name. It's about penalizing alphas over 30. Regardless of what type it is.

[JC Daxion]

Maybe you are using more power to make your mech go faster??? SO that extra power is going to the engine, and you are using a power system that has a Enrique design.. Sort of like your power supply on your computer.. It doesn't mater how big of PS you have... It's limitation is in how it is used.. aka the Pipes..


Perhaps the power is being used and charge in Cap's .. so what you are seeing is just the cap dissipation, and not the power usage when firing energy weapons, so while your weapon is recharge, it is slowly charging the caps from the engine, and Not using the power draw system.. that system is used to make your weapon systems fire, and control heat flow, and other things?


the power for ballistics is used to better manage the larger cooling systems needed to keep the barrels from getting to hot and jamming??



I dunno.. Sure why not..... Personally i care more about a tiny locust completely blocking my 100 atlas.. than i do trying to logically reason how ED works.. It's a balance too.. I don't really put much more stock into it than that.. It runs the weapon systems and limits how you fire them..

[Kaptain]

Biclor Moban, on 12 September 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

2. Maybe I am not understanding this but how is it that this mechanic is not tied to Mech size and engine size.

Because that is a terrible idea. Far too much is already linked to engine rating. Mechs with limited engine caps are already penalized enough as it is... your idea makes them unusable.

[Biclor Moban]

Kaptain, on 12 September 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Because that is a terrible idea. Far too much is already linked to engine rating. Mechs with limited engine caps are already penalized enough as it is... your idea makes them unusable.

Because you don't like it isn't a logical argument.

Generally, barring a few exceptions engines caps coincide with mech size. In fact build out would be even more important with a system as suggested above. You would have to find your own balance with speed, and enough power, tonnage and slots.

The above system would be self limiting, if you want to run a big engine for more "Energy" you would end up having less lasers to Alpha and conversely put a small engine in to get more guns and a higher Alpha you wouldn't have enough energy to run them. If you ran a small engine and lots of Ballistic/missles you would have a slow mech that would run out of ammo fast.

[Biclor Moban]

MechaBattler, on 12 September 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

It's not literally energy. It's just a misleading name. It's about penalizing alphas over 30. Regardless of what type it is.

Yes but a one size fits all approach conflicts with having different size mechs and every other metric in the game.

[Biclor Moban]

JC Daxion, on 12 September 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Maybe you are using more power to make your mech go faster??? SO that extra power is going to the engine, and you are using a power system that has a Enrique design.. Sort of like your power supply on your computer.. It doesn't mater how big of PS you have... It's limitation is in how it is used.. aka the Pipes..


Perhaps the power is being used and charge in Cap's .. so what you are seeing is just the cap dissipation, and not the power usage when firing energy weapons, so while your weapon is recharge, it is slowly charging the caps from the engine, and Not using the power draw system.. that system is used to make your weapon systems fire, and control heat flow, and other things?


the power for ballistics is used to better manage the larger cooling systems needed to keep the barrels from getting to hot and jamming??



I dunno.. Sure why not..... Personally i care more about a tiny locust completely blocking my 100 atlas.. than i do trying to logically reason how ED works.. It's a balance too.. I don't really put much more stock into it than that.. It runs the weapon systems and limits how you fire them..

I will concede that engine output may not be the sole metric we should measure this by. Why should a 20 ton mech and a 100 ton mech have the same "Capacity" for Alpha.

I will put this here for you.

http://mwomercs.com/...01#entry4871801

[Deathlike]

Biclor Moban, on 12 September 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

Because you don't like it isn't a logical argument.

No, his refute is logical at its core.

Engines are tied to speed and agility (accel, decel, turn speed, torso twisting). So, a Victor that has a Stock 320 engine (XL or STD) is less agile that one that has a 360 engine (and that's beside speed). At the peak of the poptart meta, larger engines meant better survivability. It's still true today.

Engines are also tied to internal heat sink counts. So, a Mist Lynx that has a locked 175 CXL engine is locked into 7 internal DHS, and 3 external DHS (which are totally locked due to omnimech rules), losing out on potential heat dissipation and capacity. While quirks are in place to "adjust" that fact, the current design of not using trudubs forces the external poordubs to be inferior from the get go (including some BJs and Vindicators, not just various Lights like the Locust or Commando), while mechs that can field a 250 sized engine or more (Firestarters) benefit from said behavior.

So, you're already asking for another handicap to mech discrepencies due to engine characteristics. Why you are asking for that is... being totally ignorant to the actual reasoning.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 September 2016 - 03:43 PM.

[Biclor Moban]

Deathlike, on 12 September 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

No, his refute is logical at its core.

Engines are tied to speed and agility (accel, decel, turn speed, torso twisting). So, a Victor that has a Stock 320 engine (XL or STD) is less agile that one that has a 360 engine (and that's beside speed). At the peak of the poptart meta, larger engines meant better survivability. It's still true today.

Engines are also tied to internal heat sink counts. So, a Mist Lynx that has a locked 175 CXL engine is locked into 7 internal DHS, and 3 external DHS (which are totally locked due to omnimech rules), losing out on potential heat dissipation and capacity. While quirks are in place to "adjust" that fact, the current design of not using trudubs forces the external poordubs to be inferior from the get go (including some BJs and Vindicators, not just various Lights like the Locust or Commando), while mechs that can field a 250 sized engine or more (Firestarters) benefit from said behavior.

So, you're already asking for another handicap to mech discrepencies due to engine characteristics. Why you are asking for that is... being totally ignorant to the actual reasoning.

I am not saying what you think I am.

Firestarter with 250XL you can get 27 pts of alpha damage.
Firestarter with a 200XL you can get 40 pts of alpha damage.

That 250XL Firestarter you are so worried about is pretty badass huh?

Everybody seems worried about how this would affect thier specific mech with out realizing this affects all mechs.
And right now the "energy" system is one size fits all and looks to be sized for a 35 ton mech.

So a Firestarter has the same Alpha heat limit as a Atlas does that seem Logical to you?

Edited by Biclor Moban, 12 September 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Biclor Moban, on 12 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

Firestarter with 250XL you can get 27 pts of alpha damage.
Firestarter with a 200XL you can get 40 pts of alpha damage.

That 250XL Firestarter you are so worried about is pretty badass huh?

Yes, it is because speed directly impacts both agility and the speed at which you can reposition (which is important in the BESM), both examples you gave are too slow though.

The old meta Firestarters had around an alpha of 30 with an XL 295. So yes, the speed/agility gained from that is more important than gaining a minimal increase in alpha.

Biclor Moban, on 12 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

So a Firestarter has the same Alpha heat limit as a Atlas does that seem Logical to you?

Considering the Firestarter is unable to mount similar levels of firepower and has issues with being destroyed with relative ease compared to other mechs due to low armor levels and forced XL, no, this does not seem like an issue.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 04:26 PM.

[Deathlike]

Biclor Moban, on 12 September 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

I am not saying what you think I am.

Firestarter with 250XL you can get 27 pts of alpha damage.
Firestarter with a 200XL you can get 40 pts of alpha damage.

That 250XL Firestarter you are so worried about is pretty badass huh?

Everybody seems worried about how this would affect thier specific mech with out realizing this affects all mechs.
And right now the "energy" system is one size fits all and looks to be sized for a 35 ton mech.

So a Firestarter has the same Alpha heat limit as a Atlas does that seem Logical to you?

It begs the question why any sane person would run a slow Firestarter (200XL in your terrible example)?

It's totally laughable.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I think he is using "logical" when he means "realistic" which is the real problem here, realism and balance aren't good friends.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 04:31 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

another good example on how linking Engine to ED is a bad idea,
DWF(XL300) vs a KDK(XL400), Enough said,

[MechaBattler]

Biclor Moban, on 12 September 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Yes but a one size fits all approach conflicts with having different size mechs and every other metric in the game.

Well they want to make it less Alphawarrior Online. Which I agree with.

But at the same time. It seems like they're fine with boating as long as it's penalized by this 30 point alpha limit.

[Biclor Moban]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

I think he is using "logical" when he means "realistic" which is the real problem here, realism and balance aren't good friends.

I am saying realistic! In so far as I wish to make this accurate to the physics.

I wish to make rules that are indifferent to your mech or mine.

You are all so scared of imbalance. When was the last time you got to pick your opponent and make sure he was the same tonnange and had a balanced loadout against you?

Edited by Biclor Moban, 12 September 2016 - 07:12 PM.

[Kaptain]

Deathlike, on 12 September 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

No, his refute is logical at its core.

Thank you.

[Biclor Moban]

Make all the mechs the same I am sure that is the solution.

I know the Firestarter example was crap and it diverted me from what the true answer should have been.

The true answer is
A: Why do you assume this will nerf your mech?
B: Everything is tied to engine power because without engine power nothing would work and how large that engine is decides how much work it can do.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Biclor Moban, on 12 September 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

A: Why do you assume this will nerf your mech?

Slower mechs are already punished because this game is very much about strapping on the largest engine you can reasonably fit.

Biclor Moban, on 12 September 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

B: Everything is tied to engine power because without engine power nothing would work and how large that engine is decides how much work it can do.

Realism doesn't matter when talking about balance.

[Biclor Moban]

Kaptain, on 12 September 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

Thank you.

I will concede it does have logic at its core.

The logical conclusion that you made was however based on no real data since you didn't ask how it may be implemented.
Without data (good or bad) you inserted assumptions about how you feared this would affect your mech therefore it's flawed.

[Biclor Moban]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

Slower mechs are already punished because this game is very much about strapping on the largest engine you can reasonably fit.


Realism doesn't matter when talking about balance.

I agree on both counts.

I abhor the balance system because it perpetuates exactly that.

Battletech was a role based game as in you filled a role like support or scout.

If MWO doesn't want Alphaville the need to stop making the the only way to make real money/pts damage and kills.

All MWO is, with the balance system a party with a bunch of fighters it's 1 dimensional all brawling all the time, Now share some armor! There is a reason modern warfare contains so many complimentary layers, Combined Arms is what works