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So No One Cares That Large Lasers Have Almost 1:1 Damage/heat Ratio And Long Duration?


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#1 kapusta11

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 12:36 PM

LL 8 damage/7 heat, 1.15 sec duration
IS ER LL 8 damage/8 heat, 1.3 sec duration
cER LL 10 damage/10 heat, 1.35 sec duration
c LPL 11 damage/10 heat, 1.2 sec duration
IS LPL 9 damage/7 heat, 0.8 sec duration

Any reason to use lasers over FLD weapons beside whopping 10% reduced ghost energy draw?

Also

IS LL vs cERML

8 damage vs 7 damage
450 range vs 405
1.15 duration vs 1.05
5 tons vs 1!

IS LPL vs cMPL

9 damage vs 8 damage
365 range vs 330 range
0.8 duration vs 0.85
7 tons vs 2!


What are you smoking, Paul? Nothing personal, I just want some of that **** too.

Edited by kapusta11, 09 September 2016 - 12:39 PM.


#2 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 12:44 PM

That's ignoring the somewhat pointless nature of lasers in general. The reason larger mechs don't even bother with medium lasers has to do with tonnage optimization, not the ineffectiveness of medium lasers, though the short range lasers have need their heat to come down for a while now, and especially with Flamers being an actual thing.

#3 davoodoo

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 12:44 PM

1:1 ratio i would live with, llas in tt had 8dmg 8 heat, is erll 12 heat 8 dmg, cerll 12 heat 10 dmg, is lpl 10 heat 9 dmg, clpl 10 heat 10 dmg.
Thing is that they should have no burn time.

But then i given up, i dont want to play mwo anymore with ed.

Edited by davoodoo, 09 September 2016 - 12:46 PM.


#4 Moonlight Grimoire

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 01:07 PM

I do care, I like lasers being 1:1, means people have to pay for that with tonnage sunk into heat sinks, it was how energy was designed to be balanced against ballistics. Energy weapons themselves took up less tonnage and less slots but paid for it in heat on TT. So having energy weapons being about 1:1 for damage to heat is a good step, as then they have to pay for it with heat sinks to cool off faster while ballistics add less heat per second and need less heat sinks, but, pay for it with tonnage in the weapon and ammo, as well as large slot counts.

Though, I dislike how long the LL's burn for, ER's should burn longer than standards, the cERML should not have nearly the same range and same burn time as the isLL. This just makes IS unable to reasonably trade. I feel that, honestly, cER's need a range nerf over all. Lets look at the IS ERLL vs CERLL:

  • IS LL Range: 450m
  • IS ERLL Range:675m
  • C ERLL Range:740m
Difference in range is 65m, this should be closer to 30 to 90m. As you can see the IS ERLL is also 225m longer range, this should by tabletop be only 570m, a 120m longer range. Which with giving clans a bonus for their longer burn and higher heat would give cERLL's a more reasonable range of 660m would fair. To deal with cERML's out trading IS LL's IS LL's should go back to a shorter burn than a cERML and also all lasers should have a hard max range of range*.25+base range. This would be a 25% longer range than their full damage range, this ties into the 1/(R*R) formula since we don't want to go into throwing in atmospheric conditions and what the medium's refraction index is making laser range dependent on what you are shooting through. This would make a mech under water safe from attack, as well as weather impacting laser range. While yes this would add in a layer of immersion I don't think it is needed at this time. This change would make it so a cERML do 72% of it's normal damage at 450m, the max optimal range of an IS LL. Couple this with tying all lasers 1:1 heat for damage (pulse for IS doing 1 damage less than the heat while clan is 1:1, this means a IS pulse would do 9 damage for 10 heat, clan would do 10 damage for 10 heat) and a cERML at max IS LL range would do 5.28 damage, 72% of it's base damage as it is 30m beyond it's max range. Yes the cERML would get a 15m range increase, but, that is to give it 30m over the eventual (hopefully) IS ML coming in with a 90-120m range increase over the IS ML.

View Postdavoodoo, on 09 September 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

1:1 ratio i would live with, llas in tt had 8dmg 8 heat, is erll 12 heat 8 dmg, cerll 12 heat 10 dmg, is lpl 10 heat 9 dmg, clpl 10 heat 10 dmg.
Thing is that they should have no burn time.

But then i given up, i dont want to play mwo anymore with ed.


I shudder to think of having 0 burn time lasers, they would like in previous MechWarrior titles invalidate ballistics due to how many more you can fit into a mech due to tonnage differences and then stuff the rest of the slots with heat sinks. Lasers need a burn time otherwise AC's would be useless and only ballistics we would see would be MG's and GR's.

#5 Alteran

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 01:14 PM

View Postdavoodoo, on 09 September 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

1:1 ratio i would live with, llas in tt had 8dmg 8 heat, is erll 12 heat 8 dmg, cerll 12 heat 10 dmg, is lpl 10 heat 9 dmg, clpl 10 heat 10 dmg.
Thing is that they should have no burn time.

But then i given up, i dont want to play mwo anymore with ed.


Don't give up Davoodoo, the more I run around in PTS with my current Live builds, the more I adjust to what ED does to the weapon system.

The changes overall, I find, are becoming quite minor.

It's like jumping into the bosses car and having to adjust the seat, steering wheel and mirrors. Then getting on the road and getting used to the brakes and steering. Soon you find that his Lexus drives pretty damn nice and maybe a little better than your Dodge RAM truck.

#6 davoodoo

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 03:17 PM

View PostAlteran, on 09 September 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:


Don't give up Davoodoo, the more I run around in PTS with my current Live builds, the more I adjust to what ED does to the weapon system.

The changes overall, I find, are becoming quite minor.

It's like jumping into the bosses car and having to adjust the seat, steering wheel and mirrors. Then getting on the road and getting used to the brakes and steering. Soon you find that his Lexus drives pretty damn nice and maybe a little better than your Dodge RAM truck.

I got builds rdy for every iteration of ed, i dont however want to play a battletech game which not only shits on established lore by introducing siliness like ghost heat or energy draw(these i could live with, even if they are illogical and werent needed even in previous fpses), but horribly breaks even tabletop designs, which were by no means optimised but they should ******* work, it doesnt play like battletech anymore... and all for what?? to bandaid fix problem pgi introduced themselves... for broken left leg lets put right one in a cast...

Edited by davoodoo, 09 September 2016 - 03:24 PM.


#7 Coolant

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 03:24 PM

View Postkapusta11, on 09 September 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

Any reason to use lasers over FLD weapons beside whopping 10% reduced ghost energy draw?


I've been playing a long time (since one of the late waves of Closed Beta), play regularly (several hours per week), read the forums regularly (see post count), watch the town halls somewhat, and up on Russ's Twitter. But, what is FLD? Please, in order to have complete discussions, limit the abbreviations and acronyms so that everyone can be on the same page.

p.s. I still don't know what buckets are even though I've asked on the forums a couple of times

#8 davoodoo

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 03:26 PM

ppfld, pinpoint frontloaded...

Idk what you read on forums cause this is really common term here.

Edited by davoodoo, 09 September 2016 - 03:27 PM.


#9 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 06:33 PM

yes yes this has been going on for ever Lasers dont seem balanced but they are,
also IS mechs have more Structure to combat Clan Laser Duration which is why that damage doesnt matter,
also ED stops High Clan Laser Alphas, so IS Structure Buffs will help IS even more so now,
Also IS has PPFLD ACs and more PPC options, which clan dont have,

#10 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 08:03 PM

View Postkapusta11, on 09 September 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

LL 8 damage/7 heat, 1.15 sec duration
IS ER LL 8 damage/8 heat, 1.3 sec duration
cER LL 10 damage/10 heat, 1.35 sec duration
c LPL 11 damage/10 heat, 1.2 sec duration
IS LPL 9 damage/7 heat, 0.8 sec duration

Any reason to use lasers over FLD weapons beside whopping 10% reduced ghost energy draw?

Also

IS LL vs cERML

8 damage vs 7 damage
450 range vs 405
1.15 duration vs 1.05
5 tons vs 1!

IS LPL vs cMPL

9 damage vs 8 damage
365 range vs 330 range
0.8 duration vs 0.85
7 tons vs 2!


What are you smoking, Paul? Nothing personal, I just want some of that **** too.



I remember back in the Beta Days when the IS LPL had exactly the same stats as two IS Medium Lasers ducktaped together.

Ah, memories. Only, now, you need just a single Medium-class laser to equal a Large-class laser. I guess balance is regressing a little...

#11 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 10:28 AM

Remove the energy weapon quirks, normalize the laser ranges, apply energy quirks as the intended mech flavor.

And I have asked the question, the data PGI has been gathering, it is being recalculated to REMOVE the weapon quirks? PGI keeps changing up the quirks, sometimes it had been seen an up value but for the last year or so those quirks keep being reduced. The baseline needs to be reviewed and adjusted, especially in the ranges, since not all mechs have energy quirks.


Quote

also IS mechs have more Structure to combat Clan Laser Duration which is why that damage doesnt matter,
also ED stops High Clan Laser Alphas, so IS Structure Buffs will help IS even more so now,


Have you considered WHY the mechs have structural quirks? For the IS, it cannot be do to possible use of the glass case isXL engine as many of the Clan omnis and battlemechs use the survivable cXL and they have structural quirks.

Again do not forget though many IS AND Clan mechs have structural quirks, even the highly rated Kodiak 3 has CT 15 structural quirks, the other Kodiaks have multiple slots w/structural quirks, the rarely used Orion IIC has structural quirks all over it. There are approx 8 Clan mechs that have no structural quirks, and the IS mechs did not receive any serious weapon/structural/armor quirks until after the Clans arrived. And a big change after CW (aka FP) went live.

Simply pointing out that PGI keeps making changes not to the game's foundation but the add-ons (quirks). With the type of changes they have noted for this PTS series, it is time to make other weapon changes besides the dmg/heat/duration but also to the ranges, especially the IS weapons.

#12 kapusta11

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 10:38 AM

Bump. Still relevant after Sep 12 update.





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