13 replies to this topic

[Firewing2]

I'm relatively new and have been reading about TAG, both for my LRM boat and for a Raven scout.

The question I can't seem to find and answer on is timing. For the benefits of TAG to apply do you:

1) have to be TAGing the target when the missiles are fired?
2) Only TAGing when the missiles are about to impact?
3) Have to be TAGing the entire time, from launch to impact?
or
4) Gain some degree of TAG benefits based on what % of time between firing and impact you have the target TAGed

Also,

Do the enemy receive a warning when they are TAGed? Or are their buddies just seeing the indicator/my laser, and looking for me?

[Bohxim]

Wow that's a lot of tag related qns. I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities.
1,2,3) tag should be on when you first see the enemy. Even if you haven't gotten a lock on them (under ecm cover etc), tag provides a lock box on that enemy. Tag pierces ecm no matter what range they are to you as long as within tag range. It might also quicken lock on time (someone correct me if wrong please). And tag should remain on the enemy till they're hit as long as you don't take too much return fire as they provide you bonus chills for any guided missile dmg (lrm and streaks) as well as a tag kill if the guided missiles kill the target whole tagged.
4) no visible difference to duration but like I said you'll want it to be on the target the whole time till hit or killed.
5)no warning they are tagged. But anyone can see the red laser. Especially if you go off the target as they move, they can still see it flash past them

Hope those helps

[TooDumbToQuit]

I believe C is the answer, it has to be on them when you shoot the missiles and on them when they hit. I use it for Streaks as the two together are light mech killers. As was said, their ECM does not help them when you are using it.

I use LRMs as almost direct fire weapons and I always use a TAG with them. I try not to fire at anything over 600ms away. Remember, the top range of the LRMs is how far through the air they will travel. Not how far from you. So if they go up and over something, the distance they went up and down is also part of their top range. There a number of reason to try to hold fire until they are within 5-600ms whenever possible. One is that signal you hear in your cockpit. It starts when they are fired. And LRMs are slow, 130KPH I think. So the further away your target is, the longer he will have to avoid them.

Another reason is the reason to buy and use the Adv Decay Module. It gives you 3.5 seconds more lock on time. So if you fire and your target moves when you can no longer see it, it will keep the lock for 3.5 more seconds.

What you see happening a lot is missiles are fired at a target 900ms away and the target, maybe by accident moves behind a dune, rock or building. And the Missiles fly into the hillside etc. Until recently, I did not own a Mech fit for LRMs. I looked at my stats using them mostly on trial mechs and I was a little surprised. My hit rate was about 26%.

So when I bought a couple of Mechs that could use them, I always use TAG with them. A couple of more tips I learned here was to use many small launchers over one big one because of the spread pattern. An LRM 15 fires tighter than an LRM 20. An LRM 10 fires tighter than an LRM 15 and an LRM 5 fires tighter than an LRM 10. So four LRM 5's are better than one LRM 20. (same thing with SRMs)

Because of the cockpit warning, I use to hook an LRM 5 up with a ER LL or ER PPC so they would fire at the same time. The main reason for this being that the enemy mech is going to hear the warnings go off and he is going to try to move to avoid them. Which makes it hard for him to shoot back at you for that moment.

You will be told that LRMs are a crappy weapon, that they are easy to avoid and only lower level players use them. This might be true in Quick Play but I've faced the best Units in the game using then in Faction Warfare. But they plan ahead of time to use them. They make sure it is the right map for them and they have spotters and even Mechs Narcing for them. And I've seen them mow down Heavy and Assault mechs who because of where they are attacked and how closely they are bunched, have nowhere to hide.

Is your Raven a "Narc Raven"? That is the one that has very nice quirks for using Narcs. And in many ways, a Narc is better than a TAG. Too many players consider a Narc only for LRMs etc. But it has many uses. A Narced Mech shows up to everyone where ever it is. And it shows it's health etc. If you are Narcing and you have LRM Mechs on your team, get on the comms and tell them "Charlie is Narced, bring the rain". It is surprising but people often do not look or seem to understand that this should be their target. Narcing is also quiet, I've seen good players that will have 3-4 enemy mechs Narced at the same time.

But trying to TAG for someone else can really be a problem. First, the TAG beam can be seen (I like to hit teammates with it for fun, lol). and it does not take a rocket surgeon to figure out how to trace it back to you. And unless you are working closely on the comms (the in the game "radio") with someone, they have no idea who you are tagging and when you are doing it. You really have to almost have it planned out before. And that is very hard in "pug" matches.

I personally do not see it worth the risk. You die for almost nothing. The LRM shooter might get damage. XP and C-Bills and you get very little XP and C-Bills and hunted down and killed. The enemy will hunt for Narcers, Spotters, and TAG users.

I hope this helps, the players here that know 10 times more than I do about everything related to this game will also give you very good info on this subject.

[mailin]

One thing to be aware of, if you are tagging the enemy, you may also need to lock them as well. Tag does nothing if someone doesn't have that enemy locked.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

mailin, on 09 September 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

One thing to be aware of, if you are tagging the enemy, you may also need to lock them as well. Tag does nothing if someone doesn't have that enemy locked.

In situation where a LRM boat does not have visual on the target, yes, someone needs to target that enemy, for him to be able to target it, and thus fire at it. Usually the tagger.


But the tagger can lock into one target, and then if the enemy is in large group of mechs very close to each other, he can swipe all of the enemies with tag. As the tag remains for about a second, it's possible to tag several mechs at same time. And when you see one of them being fired with LRMs, you can choose to concentrate on that.


For LRM and tag, I read somewhere that the game checks the tag and other bonuses several times during the flight of LRMS. The main idea is to keep the tag on the enemy, but losing the tag momentarily doesn't mean the benefits were completely lost, and resuming tagging continues to help. That also means the bonuses mostly apply if you tag someone right after you notice LRMs were being fired at him.


I recall the enemy doesn't get any info from being tagged I think. They get info from being narc'd, as well as others who look for their visual markers.

But the only way to secrectly to tag someone, is to be pretty much behind them, in situation where they are mostly alone. If they are in group of mechs, the enemy mechs usually turn their torso to side when being fired (by any weapons), and in that situation they would likely see you, target you if they can(ecm of course would prevens it), and quite usually shoot at you even when they can't target you, alerting the other enemy mechs to look towards what that one is shooting, and thus they all become aware of you.

And if you are completely behind the enemy, it's very risky position, so I would not recommend trying. You are just better off tagging someone when you see their are being fired with missiles.


Also, if you can, target and tag heavies and assults. A good LRM boat skipper will prioritise larger targets, specially when they don't have practically unlimited amount of missiles. They might not fire at mediums or lights at all, even when there is nothing else.

[Rogue Jedi]

Firewing2, on 09 September 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

I'm relatively new and have been reading about TAG, both for my LRM boat and for a Raven scout.

The question I can't seem to find and answer on is timing. For the benefits of TAG to apply do you:

1) have to be TAGing the target when the missiles are fired?
2) Only TAGing when the missiles are about to impact?
3) Have to be TAGing the entire time, from launch to impact?
or
4) Gain some degree of TAG benefits based on what % of time between firing and impact you have the target TAGed

Also,

Do the enemy receive a warning when they are TAGed? Or are their buddies just seeing the indicator/my laser, and looking for me?

what TAG does,

1. it reduces lock time, meaning if TAG is on target you get a lock (both target info and missile lock) faster, also helps if you loose and reaquire the lock
2. it counters ECM, if you are trying to target a Mech protected by ECM you may not be able to get a lock, but the second you put TAG on the Mech you can get a lock, unless the Mech with the TAG is within the enemy ECM bubble
3. it tightens missile spread
4. it improves missile tracking, so if a TAGed Mech is performing evasive manouvers it is less likely to evade the missiles than if it was not tagged

so in answer to the original question

1) is correct, if you are tagging when you first fire you get faster missile lock, but if you loose it missile spread widens and the missiles do not track as well
2) is correct, if you TAG when the missiles are about to impact that helps with a final course correction for the missiles and will tighten missile spread, but you do not get the faster missile lock
3) is inaccurate, tagging the entire time will get you best benefits but you still get some benefits if you loose the lock or are not tagging for missile launch.
and 4) is correct, the more time you have TAG on target the more benefits you get

[Firewing2]

Awesome. Thanks for the help everyone!

[TooDumbToQuit]

Teer5, on 10 September 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

And when you see one of them being fired with LRMs, you can choose to concentrate on that.

For LRM and tag, I read somewhere that the game checks the tag and other bonuses several times during the flight of LRMS. The main idea is to keep the tag on the enemy, but losing the tag momentarily doesn't mean the benefits were completely lost, and resuming tagging continues to help. That also means the bonuses mostly apply if you tag someone right after you notice LRMs were being fired at him.

You are just better off tagging someone when you see their are being fired with missiles.

Also, if you can, target and tag heavies and assults. A good LRM boat skipper will prioritise larger targets, specially when they don't have practically unlimited amount of missiles. They might not fire at mediums or lights at all, even when there is nothing else.

Thanks Teer5, you brought up a couple of things I forgot to mention and also corrected my mistakes.

When I was trying to tag as a light I stopped trying to get anyone to shoot at who I was tagging. Not only did I not know who had missiles and had almost no communication with him/her but I realized that I did not know how far away the LRM boat was from the Mech I was tagging. So maybe I was tagging a mech 1200ms away from the launcher.

So I started waiting to see who was being shot at and then I tried to tag them. I'm glad that you do not have to have the tag on all the time because that is very hard to do. Tagging a large slow Mech from behind (or from the front)is one thing, but trying to keep it on a moving target is hard.

This is also true with Tag and streaks. It is very hard to stay with some of these "jitterbug" light pilots. Basically trying to hit a very fast and mobile light with LRMs is simply a waste of missiles. When I'm in a Locust it cracks me up that people are wasting their missiles on me when they could be killing a Heavy or Assault.

In fact, there are times I will turn my ECM to counter just to invite someone to try and shoot LRMs at me. I'd rather their missiles hit 20ms behind me then on a larger/slower teammate.

(hear that OldBob? LOL)

[Koniving]

Ah crap so much to read to make sure it is all correct.

I'll give a short version which may already be covered.

"TAG works the moment you 'hit' the enemy with it... for as long as you continue to hit them with it.". (At least for now).

Some quick notes, to gain any benefit at all you'd have to be hitting them with tag when you launch... or missiles will ignore tag.

Missiles react with tag benefits as long as you hold the target.
You can lose TAG and retag during missile flight... and still regain a TAG reaction in the missiles so long as there was active tag when you fired that specific salvo of missiles. Anyone's TAG is good.

You can resume a TAG someone else started, too.

Effects of tag:
Tighter missile grouping.
Both greater number and frequency of course corrections over flight to ensure they will hit around center mass.

TAG stacks (in MWO) with Artemis for LRMs, allowing even better results. (Artemis requires line of sight the entire time but like TAG after firing you can break and resume, losing benefits only as long as you broke it).

[Koniving]

Now for fun with missiles:

One.... LRMs only track while locked. Like tag and Artemis missiles resume going after target after you relock. They will not change targets however. ....wish they could.

Streaks don't care if you lose the lock once they fire. They will even do donuts through you to get to the enemy that is behind you. I'm serious! (Real benefit of 360 degree target retention combined with that target holding thing is launching Streaks at pursuers while running away!). (in BT... Streaks are the inferior option meant to save money and minimize waste, they aren't as amazing as MWO's and actually are pretty terrible).

LRMs can dumbfire.
On arms they move to the "o" cross hair.
On torso they move to the + cross hair.
They will lock with EITHER cross hair!
In an assault mech (where this is practical because you are slow), you can keep hammering an enemy in front of you while dealing with a second pest by taking advantage of these two cross hairs. The simplest method of practice is bombarding LRMs against hills that enemies keep creating to suppress them with the + cross hair while blasting lasers or ACs into an enemy using the o cross hair. Great tactic for more command oriented players, allowing you to multi-task against two fronts and give command 'suggestions' to allies.

LRMs can turn corners!
Note, only works against non-ecm supported targets.
Far corner turning:. Lock at enemy and fire; enemy must be around 700 meters away or greater. Break lock immediately. Relock missiles start to go down. Watch them perform a sudden sharp turn. For best results do this with a TAG and Artemis -- holy...

For near corner turning. Note LRM must be mounted on torso!
Stand near corner. Face clearing. Use TAG to check for invisible walls and adjust as necessary.
Arm lock off (option or hold shift if normally on), hold left CTRL and use arm cross hair ( o ) to lock enemy mech and fire. Missiles will fly turn around corner. Note this will not help them go over hills...

But to have them go over hills.. Ensure target is 800 meters away for big obstacles and stand 60 meters behind big obstacle, lock and fire. For small hills and short buildings... stand 30 meters behind obstacle (sometimes 40) and ensure target is a minimum of 600 meters away, lock and fire.

If target is less than 500 meters away missiles will not fly upward enough to clear any obstacles at all.

Hope that helps and good luck out there.
Welcome to MWO.

Edited by Koniving, 10 September 2016 - 10:13 AM.

[Koniving]

Teer5, on 10 September 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

For LRM and tag, I read somewhere that the game checks the tag and other bonuses several times during the flight of LRMS. The main idea is to keep the tag on the enemy, but losing the tag momentarily doesn't mean the benefits were completely lost, and resuming tagging continues to help. That also means the bonuses mostly apply if you tag someone right after you notice LRMs were being fired at him.

This is correct. However it only listens for TAG input on the target it was set to fire on (locked on) and only if that target was actively tagged at time of launch. A TAG happening after a salvo launches will be ignored by that specific salvo. The flag for TAG must be set at time of launch, and so long as that is met you can look away do the cha-cha and whip back to tag a second before impact and still have some benefit from it.

But no tag at time of launch makes those missiles very very sad pandas.

Fun experiment!

Lock and fire an LRM.
Tag and again lock and fire a second LRM.
Notice first one doesn't change or react.

Lock, tag and fire an LRM.
Stop tag, lock and fire a second LRM.
Retag immediately after launching.
Notice second salvo ignores tag completely and fails to react.

[TooDumbToQuit]

So you can shoot and move off of the target as long as you retarget before the missiles hit?

Since I tend to shoot them at shorter ranges, and even when I'm shooting at long range I'm often being shot back at. So can i move or at least do a torso twist and still have my missiles hit if I manage to target them again?

I normally use TAG and LRMs with Fire Control. I hold button 2 and the TAG comes on and the first LRM fires it's missiles. Is that enough time for the first LRMs to get the tag pluses?

My first use of Fire Control was to keep Tag on all the time if I wanted to.

I love adv Target decay btway and when I get the C-bills, I'm going to try the 360 retention again.

Edited by LikeUntoGod, 10 September 2016 - 10:15 AM.

[Koniving]

If you wanna do that reliably you'll need either a mech 35 tons or less with a 200 engine minimum or a very fast twisty mech in general... and "short range" would need to be 600+. If you mean LRMs.

Edit:. If you meant with Streaks:. YES! Don't stare. Lock shoot twist.

Missiles are faster than they used to be in 2014.

Side note:. You can fire missiles at any angle you can see.

So something like a Dragon... put all weapons on arms except LRMs. Twist your tank side into shots and use the corner of your cockpit to land those shots. Before the arm range reduction in Centurions a common tactic was to twist shield arm forward, March at 64.8 kph and hook the gun arm overtop of the shield arm to make your shots using left CTRL. It looked incredible! It felt awesome especially with a wave of four side by side. LRMs firing and autocannons blasting. And when the shield is down or you get close, hit C to center torso and let loose the lasers!

Kintaros are fantastic with similar 45 degree shooting tactics too.

Edited by Koniving, 10 September 2016 - 10:22 AM.

[mailin]

I love dumb-firing my lrms, especially when a target shuts down due to overheating. Just have the reticle on your target and fire away. The lrms will hit exactly where your reticle is when you fire, so as long as you are close enough and have the reticle on the enemy they will hit. There are two other times that I find dumb-firing useful. For any enemy mech that is standing in one spot but you are unable to achieve a lock (usually due to the presence of ECM), center your reticle and fire away. Note that it is advisable to check your range prior to firing lrms. The range shows up as numbers immediately to the right of your reticle. Also, lrms are a great way to discourage jump sniping, although I don't recommend this with larger launchers due to wasting ammo. But, if the enemy keeps cresting a hill, firing and then retreating you can dumb fire the lrms to the crest of the hill. Some may hit the enemy and at least make them think twice about cresting again.

Edited by mailin, 11 September 2016 - 07:19 PM.