32 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Quote

Gauss Rifles
With the heaver restrictions on Heat Thresholds in this update, we are re-introducing the Charge mechanic for Gauss Rifles and bringing the Energy Consumption values down to their original 1:1 values.

• Charge mechanic has been restored.
• Energy Consumption decreased to 15 (from 18).
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 6 (from 6.71).

Effectively a net double nerf from previous values. 3 less Energy Consumption is not a balanced trade off for now having a (slightly) longer CD (6.71 > 6.75) which also includes charge up.

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PPC's
After reviewing the previous PTS testing data and evaluating the overall goals we wished to accomplish with Energy Draw, we feel that the previous PTS values for the Clan ERPPC presented too great a difference when compared against other weapons of similar weight, even with the drastic reduction to the Cooldown Duration of the Clan ERPPC. Restoring Splash Damage to the Clan ERPPC allows us to better justify a further reduction to its Cooldown Duration and Energy Consumption values, for roughly comparable Damage output.

For PPC weaponry in general we feel that we also had an opportunity to improve the Anti-ECM effect of PPC impacts, in an effort to provide the weapon with some additional utility.

Clan ERPPC
• Damage decreased to 10 (from 15).
• Splash Damage has been restored.
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 5 (from 6.8).
• Anti-ECM effect increased to 6s (from 4s).
• Energy Consumption decreased to 13.5 (from 15).

PPC
• Anti-ECM effect increased to 6s (from 4s).

ERPPC
• Anti-ECM effect increased to 10s (from 4s).

1) Anti-ECM effect is an irrelevant statistic for this weapon's performance. It is not even a build consideration for competitive game-play (i.e. no one in MRBC Div A or B even cares that this exists).

2) IS ER PPCs look exceedingly bad this round. Same CD as Clan ER PPCs, same heat generation, no splash damage, higher tonnage cost, higher critical slot cost.

If you are going to work on balance, you'll need to take this into account - the longer "Anti-ecm" effect doesn't do that.

The combat values need to be balance, the fluff values are irrelevant at this stage of balance.

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Lasers
Up until now, Lasers have been designed with the same Cooldown Duration values across the entire Laser size class, while Beam Duration has generally been the primary attribute that distinguishes the different Laser classes.

We feel that previous implementation left little room for adjusting the different Laser weapons without introducing undesirable results. We feel a better solution here is to unlock the Cooldown Duration attribute for different Laser types, allowing this attribute to better distinguish Lasers from each other and to give us greater flexibility in balancing Clan Lasers against Inner Sphere Lasers.

For this implementation we are tuning Laser weaponry under the following design directives:

• Standard Lasers: Baseline lasers, which all other Laser types pivot around.
  
• ER Lasers: Keep the same Beam Duration as Standard Lasers, but with longer Cooldown Durations to adhere to the previously-stated design goals regarding Cooldown differences between close and longer ranged weaponry.
  
• Pulse Lasers: Beam Duration and Cooldown Duration will be lower than Standard Laser and ER Laser values, but some general tuning has been performed to shift Pulse Lasers into a slightly more DPS-focused role.
  
• Clan Lasers: Will typically have longer Beam Durations compared to their IS counterparts to account for their greater Damage and Range values.

Large Laser



• Beam Duration decreased to 1.1 (from 1.15)

ER Large Laser
• Beam Duration decreased to 1.1 (from 1.3)
• Cooldown Duration increased to 3.9 (from 3.74)

Small Pulse Laser
• Beam Duration increased to 0.6 (from 0.5)
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 2.4 (from 2.59)

Medium Pulse Laser
• Beam Duration increased to 0.7 (from 0.6)
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.3 (from 3.45)

Large Pulse Laser
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.5 (from 3.74)

Clan ER Small Laser
• Cooldown Duration increased to 2.8 (from 2.59)

Clan ER Medium Laser
• Cooldown Duration increased to 3.7 (from 3.45)
• Max Range decreased to 749 (from 770)

Clan ER Large Laser
• Beam Duration decreased to 1.25 (from 1.35)
• Cooldown Duration increased to 3.9 (from 3.74)

Clan Small Pulse Laser
• Beam Duration increased to 0.85 (from 0.75)
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 2.5 (from 2.59)

Clan Medium Pulse Laser
• Beam Duration increased to 0.9 (from 0.85)
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.3 (from 3.45)

Clan Large Pulse Laser
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.5 (from 3.74)

With so many Laser Weapons having their CD's made even longer, with lower heat caps, and nerfed module stats - why is the baseline beam duration an unwieldly 1.1s for the IS LLAS?

I find it hard to comprehend this, because the LLAS has for the longest time been one of the most consistently underused and mediocre laser weapons in the game.



When you are balancing your energy weapons, you need to look at the whole system - and the choice is either LASER SOLUTION or PPC SOLUTION when players are building around energy.

If you nerf one of them too much, or they have inherently less desirable stats - you get in imbalance where one completely dominates play (REF: PPC meta during height of best PPC stats, replaced by Laser meta post PPC velocity nerfs).




Lastly, pulse lasers will not be focused into a "DPS" focused role simply because they have lower cooldowns, because they will still be limited by heat caps.

The shorter your beam duration and the shorter your weapon cool down, the faster you will generate heat.


IS Medium Pulse & Clan Medium Pulse still look very bad in comparison to standard Medium and Clan ER Medium lasers. Too much tonnage and loss of range, for not enough value returned.

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Ultra AutoCannon's

Our initial Design for adjusting U-AC behavior called for distinct Jam Duration values across the U-AC line, centered around adjustments to the Clan U-AC/10 we pushed in the last patch on September 1st, but due to a communication mix-up the implementation of the Jam Duration changes ended up as a Global increase to 8s for all of the U-AC weaponry.
In this update we've fixed that Global 8s Jam Duration and have implemented the intended per-weapon Duration. As the Clan U-AC/10 is the reference point against which the other U-AC's are balanced, the Clan U-AC/10 keeps the 8s Jam Duration.

Inner Sphere U-AC/5
• Jam Chance increased to 15% (from 12%)
• Jam Duration reduced to 5.5s (from 8s)

Clan U-AC/2
• Jam Chance increased to 17% (from 7%)
• Jam Duration reduced to 2.3s (from 8s)

Clan U-AC/5
• Jam Chance increased to 17% (from 15%)
• Jam Duration reduced to 6.5s (from 8s)

Clan U-AC/20
• Jam Chance decreased to 17% (from 20%)
• Jam Duration increased to 10s (from 8s)

I'll just have to repeat what I said before, and that is you do not take a close range weapon that has a 17% chance to jam and a 10s jam duration.

The risk is higher than the reward, because limiting yourself to close range is already a risk factor.

Edited by Ultimax, 12 September 2016 - 11:26 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Not to mention, the Gauss range nerf as well

Still at 2x, from 3x (unless they did revert it)

[Deathlike]

I like how these spreadsheet changes totally ignores the reality of the weapons themselves... like cooldown on pulse lasers don't really help their DPS... only burst due to heat sustainability is difficult to do (and realistically not doable).

SpreadsheetWarrior > RealityMechWarrior is the balance overlord's world.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 September 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[Deathlike]

Also, the bus throwing comments (whether real or imagined) doesn't help the terrible jam values that are listed there. I'm sure the guy thrown under the bus and our balance overlord still let those new numbers go through.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 12 September 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

like cooldown on pulse lasers don't really help their DPS...

I like that they have nearly the same DPS just with longer durations more than the heat problem, I'm still hoping it is a typo.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 12:39 PM.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

I like that they have nearly the same DPS just with longer durations more than the heat problem, I'm still hoping it is a typo.

It's not a typo. We're talking about our balance overlord here. I mean, 10s CUAC20 jams is what that weapon truly needs!

[Lostdragon]

Nice analysis. I am not sure what is going on here, I was left scratching my head the whole time I read about the changes. Gauss took a pretty hard nerf as did PPCs, the buffs lasers got are myopic and will have little real world impact, LRM5s got nerfed, and UACs got giganerfed, especially the UAC20. It's like they don't want people to use them at all.

And still no buffs for MGs or LBX....

Edited by Lostdragon, 12 September 2016 - 03:32 PM.

[Deathlike]

Lostdragon, on 12 September 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

And still no buffs for MGs or LBX....

This is Lostech™.

[Pariah Devalis]

What bothers me is the total reversion of the Clan ERPPC. I could understand a damage reduction to, say, 13 damage, but that splash mechanic is awful. It is unwanted, wasted damage that acts as an excuse for a heat tax. It only serves to inflate damage numbers, and gives an excuse to make the weapon system hotter than it has any right to be. Simply put, this change is awful. A flat damage reduction would have been worlds better. The higher PP damage output C-ERPPC wasn't even given a chance. It was totally reverted, not tuned whatsoever aside from that common sense cooldown increase.

I can absolutely understand 15 PPFLD being considered too high on a 6-ton weapon system, even if it was hotter than the Sun and had a cooldown long enough to complete one rotation around said Sun. It was a bit exploitable in something like the Shadow Cat. However, 13 damage and no splash, with those long cooldowns seems a hell of a lot more enticing a weapon option over 10 with splash and 15(!!!!) heat. That increased rate of fire doesn't do it any good because it is so hot in the first place. Plus, given how many DHS you need to compensate for the heat of the things, it isn't like it is a flat 6 tons you're looking at. It's a pretty sizable tonnage investment in DHS to run even one ERPPC if you intend to use any other energy weapon systems alongside it.

The game as a whole finally had a PPC worth taking without the need for massive quirks. Finally. One of the three PPCs was finally good. This is a step in the wrong direction for the weapon system.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 September 2016 - 04:59 PM.

[FlareHeart Devalis]

I'm with Pariah. The stupid high heat that is supposedly making up for worthless splash damage is just plain useless and it relegates PPC Mechs like the Adder to being useless again. The Adder was usable with non splash PPC's. But back to this splash junk? Nope. Why?

[FupDup]

FlareHeart Devalis, on 12 September 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

I'm with Pariah. The stupid high heat that is supposedly making up for worthless splash damage is just plain useless and it relegates PPC Mechs like the Adder to being useless again. The Adder was usable with non splash PPC's. But back to this splash junk? Nope. Why?

It might have something to do with the fact that 2 Clan ERPPCs were superior to 3 IS PPCs in almost all categories.

[Pariah Devalis]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

It might have something to do with the fact that 2 Clan ERPPCs were superior to 3 IS PPCs in almost all categories.

Right. But a straight damage reduction would have compensated for that. That splash is just terrible at the cost of pinpoint damage output. Plus the added heat and power draw PGI ties to it.

Edit: Hell, if they gave IS ERPPC splash and C-ERPPC more pinpoint focused damage, at least, from a lore perspective, it would make some iota of sense. It's supposed to be a more focused weapons array. Not a smearcannon.

13 damage, 14 heat, 7 second cooldown puts it at 1.857 DPS vs IS 2.0, for example.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 September 2016 - 05:32 PM.

[Deathlike]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 September 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

Right. But a straight damage reduction would have compensated for that. That splash is just terrible at the cost of pinpoint damage output. Plus the added heat and power draw PGI ties to it.

Edit: Hell, if they gave IS ERPPC splash and C-ERPPC more pinpoint focused damage, at least, from a lore perspective, it would make some iota of sense. It's supposed to be a more focused weapons array. Not a smearcannon.

That's still not enough for the IS ERPPC. You have to make them distinctly useful, and IS ERPPCs are not useful in either case between the IS PPC and CERPPC.

You might as well write them off like IS SL or MGs.

[Pariah Devalis]

Deathlike, on 12 September 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

That's still not enough for the IS ERPPC. You have to make them distinctly useful, and IS ERPPCs are not useful in either case between the IS PPC and CERPPC.

You might as well write them off like IS SL or MGs.

Right. But that's a problem with IS ERPPC, not Clan ERPPC. The entire PPC family is in a bad state. Instead of making them all worthwhile in their own way, we're putting the one that was good into the same state of suck.

[Deathlike]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 September 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Right. But that's a problem with IS ERPPC, not Clan ERPPC. The entire PPC family is in a bad state. Instead of making them all worthwhile in their own way, we're putting the one that was good into the same state of suck.

I'm actually OK with the CERPPC sucking a bit given the current set of options. It still won't make the IS ERPPC better, but it doesn't invalidate the purpose of the CLPL.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 September 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Right. But that's a problem with IS ERPPC, not Clan ERPPC. The entire PPC family is in a bad state. Instead of making them all worthwhile in their own way, we're putting the one that was good into the same state of suck.

Maybe in the PTS they are, but in live the Clan ERPPC is one of the best weapons.

[Wintersdark]

All I can say is I'd rather have no splash damage and 10 ppfld than the current 10+2.5+(maybe)2.5.

cERPPC's have to pay for that splash, and it's worthless.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Where I feel PPCs should be:

PPC:
Damage: 10
Heat: 8-9
Cooldown: 4.5-4.7 seconds
Velocity: 1200

I'd like to see the PPC as more of a brawling weapon, with a greater DPS and more manageable heat buildup compared to the other PPC types.

ERPPC:
Damage:10
Heat: 13.5-15
Cooldown: 5 seconds
Velocity: 1800-2000

This is the choice if you want a competitive sniping weapon for IS mechs. 1800-2000 velocity makes it easy to land shots within its optimal range, so a patient and accurate hand can make up for the extra heat over the standard PPC.

c-ERPPC:
Damage: 12-13
Heat: 15
Cooldown: 6.5
Velocity: 1300

At 12-13 damage with about a 6.5 second cooldown, this puts it at the about the same DPS as the IS ERPPC for less facetime, but it's significantly harder to land accurate hits with the base velocity, so overall it outperforms the IS ERPPC in brawling, but is outperformed in long range engagements.

I'd like to see this kind of methodology in IS vs Clan weapons, where they might have slightly different roles, my idea for LRMs is having IS LRMs fly faster, and restoring full damage at point blank on Clan LRMs.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I am a little torn myself with those Clan PPC's change revision. I think there is a sweatspot with 15. Then again they were over performing, especially at range. there is a difference between over performing, and having an edge over and IS PPC. I just wish there was a better trade-off for them.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 14 September 2016 - 09:54 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I like muh splash honestly. Totally down for keeping it so long as the weapon is balanced around the 10 pinpoint.