32 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 14 September 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

cERPPC's have to pay for that splash, and it's worthless.

I'm not saying I'm totally happy with the changes, but can you justify that statement?

There's been a lot of changes, so I'm having trouble keeping up myself but my understanding is that right now on PTS 4:


IS ER PPC
13.5 heat
10 damage
5s CD
7 tons
3 slots


C ER PPC
13.5 heat
10+splash damage
5s CD
6 Tons
2 Slots


Same heat, the same or better damage, same CD, lower weight, less slots.

Where is the CERPPC paying for that splash damage vs. the IS ER PPC?

[Frankdark]

And Why not:

IS PPC

10 Damage
10 Heat
6 Sek CD

Clan Version
8 Damage
8 Heat
5 Sek CD

Combin this with Speed Bonus for IS ER PPC and you have a good combination.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimax, on 15 September 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

I'm not saying I'm totally happy with the changes, but can you justify that statement?

There's been a lot of changes, so I'm having trouble keeping up myself but my understanding is that right now on PTS 4:


IS ER PPC
13.5 heat
10 damage
5s CD
7 tons
3 slots


C ER PPC
13.5 heat
10+splash damage
5s CD
6 Tons
2 Slots


Same heat, the same or better damage, same CD, lower weight, less slots.

Where is the CERPPC paying for that splash damage vs. the IS ER PPC?

That statement has nothing to do with the IS ERPPC, and was meant as a statement about how the weapon works overall (not just on the PTS.

The IS ERPPC is largely garbage. This does not mean the cERPPC needs to be garbage too, it means the ERPPC needs to be better. This is a very important difference, it's like arguing that the Vindicator is worse than the ice ferret, so the ice ferret clearly needs nerfs.

But again, I'm not talking about pts4 specifics here either, but globally. With the cERPPC having splash, and being physically smaller than the IS ERPPC, people are going to continue to say it needs more penalties vs. the IS ERPPC than if it did the same damage.

And my point is that extra damage, while shiny on the match report screen, is really not worth... Well, anything. Even if the cERPPC is "fine" right now, I'd prefer it be fine without splash and with a slight buff elsewhere than fine with splash.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 15 September 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

That statement has nothing to do with the IS ERPPC, and was meant as a statement about how the weapon works overall (not just on the PTS.

The IS ERPPC is largely garbage. This does not mean the cERPPC needs to be garbage too, it means the ERPPC needs to be better. This is a very important difference, it's like arguing that the Vindicator is worse than the ice ferret, so the ice ferret clearly needs nerfs.

That's just not going to work for "weapon balancing" - the weapons directly affect faction balance.

The CERPPC is not "paying" more than the IS ERPPC is for anything, and in fact gets more value for the same heat cost - which is also a lower heat cost than it has right now on live. It is a frequently chosen weapon in competitive matches, used on TBRs and Kodiaks.

Watch some MWOWC matches, you will see TBR's with Gauss / CERPPCs show up frequently in matches featuring the top 10 teams in NA and most long range builds include Kodiaks with Dual Gauss Dual CERPPC.



The IS PPC is 10 damage for 10 heat. 3 crit slots, 7 tons, 90m deadzone, much shorter effective range.

How much more superior should the CERPPC be in comparison to these?

Wintersdark, on 15 September 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

But again, I'm not talking about pts4 specifics here either, but globally. With the cERPPC having splash, and being physically smaller than the IS ERPPC, people are going to continue to say it needs more penalties vs. the IS ERPPC than if it did the same damage.

Yes, that's balance. It very clearly needs to have some drawbacks for it's advantages vs. the IS versions - and right now on live and on PTS it is completely superior to the IS ERPPC and is a competitive weapon.

So saying that it's "paying" for splash damage, makes no sense in comparison to the IS versions - you must compare to the IS versions because you are claiming it "pays" more than they do for it's splash damage.

Which is clearly not the case.

Wintersdark, on 15 September 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

And my point is that extra damage, while shiny on the match report screen, is really not worth... Well, anything. Even if the cERPPC is "fine" right now, I'd prefer it be fine without splash and with a slight buff elsewhere than fine with splash.

For one thing, SRMs are basically "all splash" and yet in close combat they are brutal weapons that wreck mechs.

Lasers spread their damage all over the place and they are still used.

More damage is more, just because you can't control exactly where all 15 points are going doesn't make it worthless.

Hit CT and get splash on STs? That isn't worthless.


You're asking for buffs to a weapon that is as strong or stronger than both of the IS options, so I read this as faction bias as opposed to an actual thought on balance.

Edited by Ultimax, 15 September 2016 - 05:58 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimax, on 15 September 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

That's just not going to work for "weapon balancing" - the weapons directly affect faction balance.

The CERPPC is not "paying" more than the IS ERPPC is for anything, and in fact gets more value for the same heat cost - which is also a lower heat cost than it has right now on live. It is a frequently chosen weapon in competitive matches, used on TBRs and Kodiaks.

Watch some MWOWC matches, you will see TBR's with Gauss / CERPPCs show up frequently in matches featuring the top 10 teams in NA and most long range builds include Kodiaks with Dual Gauss Dual CERPPC.



The IS PPC is 10 damage for 10 heat. 3 crit slots, 7 tons, 90m deadzone, much shorter effective range.

How much more superior should the CERPPC be in comparison to these?





Yes, that's balance. It very clearly needs to have some drawbacks for it's advantages vs. the IS versions - and right now on live and on PTS it is completely superior to the IS ERPPC and is a competitive weapon.

So saying that it's "paying" for splash damage, makes no sense in comparison to the IS versions - you must compare to the IS versions because you are claiming it "pays" more than they do for it's splash damage.

Which is clearly not the case.




For one thing, SRMs are basically "all splash" and yet in close combat they are brutal weapons that wreck mechs.

Lasers spread their damage all over the place and they are still used.

More damage is more, just because you can't control exactly where all 15 points are going doesn't make it worthless.

Hit CT and get splash on STs? That isn't worthless.

You're asking for buffs to a weapon that is as strong or stronger than both of the IS options, so I read this as faction bias as opposed to an actual thought on balance.

Much babble, totally and utterly missing my point.

I made no claim as to whether the cERPPC was a good weapon or not. That's actually totally irrelevant to my point. Just that I'd rather NOT have splash damage than have it.

Pay close attention:

I AM NOT SAYING THE cERPPC SHOULD BE BETTER THAN THE IS ERPPC. Not in any way, shape, or form.

Take this in a different way:

Just remove the splash damage, now the cERPPC isn't as good, so it's closer to the IS ERPPC, right? There. That's my point. Of course, you're making the cERPPC worse and not making the bad ERPPC better, so now you have two kinda bad weapons, but whatever, that appears to be how you want to balance things so I won't argue. Either way, the two weapons are closer together.

My point is that given their current place on the balance scale, whatever it may be cERPPC's are "higher" because they have splash damage. I don't want that. Take the splash damage off, and then they're lower on the "how good is this weapon" scale. Maybe afterwards, you need to buff BOTH the ERPPC and the cERPPC. I'm fine with that.

Because, and I say this again in bold because you seem to have some idea that I give even one **** about Clans being stronger vs. IS, I think the IS ERPPC absolutely needs to be buffed.

Christ. Why does everyone have to go to some ******* stupid "Derp, you're just biased and think your faction should be better" when people don't even have factions it's a stupid ******* logo on the forums because practically nobody is even playing faction warfare. I want all mechs to be balanced, because I want all mechs to be balanced. I've got over a hundred IS mechs, and I use them as much as I use my Clan mechs. I don't give two shits about faction warfare, and won't until as a system it's not total garbage. As I don't play faction warfare, and I use IS mechs and Clan mechs equally in quick play, I gain nothing from one side or the other being stronger. But I do want all mechs to be balanced, and as such I care about Marauders vs. Timberwolves exactly as much as I care about Nova's vs. Hunchback IIC's or Vindicators vs. Blackjacks.

You're better than this, and you should know better. Buff the crappy ISERPPC; absolutely. Do it first; I don't care. Just ditch the splash damage, because it's a waste of "item budget."

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 15 September 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

I made no claim as to whether the cERPPC was a good weapon or not.

It's pretty much implied when you suggest buffs for it, that you don't think it's a good enough weapon.

You stated that you'd rather have the splash removed because "the CERPPCs have to pay for that splash".

How? How do they pay for that splash? Compared to what?


They don't pay for it at all - it's basically free, extra splash damage and thats it.

They don't pay for it with tonnage, they don't pay for it with longer cooldown, they don't pay for with higher heat, they don't pay for it with shorter range.


They don't pay for it by being a bad weapon, they aren't - they are very good weapons.

Wintersdark, on 15 September 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

My point is that given their current place on the balance scale, whatever it may be cERPPC's are "higher" because they have splash damage. I don't want that. Take the splash damage off, and then they're lower on the "how good is this weapon" scale. Maybe afterwards, you need to buff BOTH the ERPPC and the cERPPC. I'm fine with that.

They aren't just higher than IS ERPPCs, they are a frequently used top or near-top tier weapon, with or without the splash damage.

What buffs do you think they can even get if the splash damage was removed?


You seem to think that they are "paying" for their splash damage with some kind of an item budget and I'm saying they are already solid top tier weapons.

The only thing I really want for PPC class weapons is to have their velocity improved.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 15 September 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

They don't pay for it at all - it's basically free, extra splash damage and thats it.

I think he is referring to the extra energy draw is has because of the splash, which I would agree with, the extra draw is too high given the low value of it.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 September 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

I think he is referring to the extra energy draw is has because of the splash, which I would agree with, the extra draw is too high given the low value of it.

OK, that makes sense then (which if you read my first post that was my honest question and I even said I haven't been able to keep track of every detail due to so many revisions at this point).

I misread the energy draw as heat, so I was really confused as to why he thought they were being penalized.


With that in mind, yes I think that energy draw can come down - not that it really accomplishes anything since it doesn't actually affect any realistic weapon combinations.

Edited by Ultimax, 15 September 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 15 September 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

With that in mind, yes I think that energy draw can come down - not that it really accomplishes anything since it doesn't actually affect any realistic weapon combinations.

Well you could potentially stack 3 ERPPCs if it didn't have splash and the associated power draw (and had lower heat).

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 September 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

I think he is referring to the extra energy draw is has because of the splash, which I would agree with, the extra draw is too high given the low value of it.

Not specifically. [Edit: Although you DO see this on the PTS, but I'm not talking about any particular instance]

I'm not talking about the weapons stats on live or PTS, or in comparison to anyone else.

I'm not saying it's good, or bad.

I'm not even really saying I feel it needs a buff.

Very simply put, I'm saying that in the grand balancing scheme of things, it'll be better without the splash than with it.


Despite the ridiculous things Ultimax is trying to read into what I'm saying, I'm not pursuing some complex goal here, and I'm definitely not just trying to sneakily Make Clans Better at the expense of the Poor And Beleagured Inner Sphere.

---

Look at it this way instead:
You feel the Clan ERPPC is too good? Fine. Take away the splash. Don't do anything else, just take away the splash. Now it's less "too good" and when we move forward with balancing, and improve the sh***y IS ERPPC, now they'll be closer.

Either the cERPPC is too good, in which case removing the splash will improve balance, or it's perfect, and removing the splash with make it a little underpowered which can be later fixed with literally anything else, or it's already underpowered and it'll be worse yet, but can still be fixed with literally anything else. It doesn't matter. I don't care which of the above three is the case, in all of them we end up in a better place later than we started.

If the IS ERPPC is too weak - and not just compared to the cERPPC, because that's stupid and if your only ( <-- key word before someone freaks out ) thought on weapon balance game-wide is comparing two weapons between IS and Clan you're a freaking moron, but compared to all other weapons - then buff the IS ERPPC. And yes, I very firmly believe the IS ERPPC too weak and needs to be buffed. 100%.



Look, I'm not asking for "my weapon to be made better so I benefit", the ERPPC is every bit as much "my weapon" as the cERPPC is. I want all the weapons to be balanced, and balanced overall not just inbetween IS vs. Clan but between all the weapons.

The splash on the cERPPC can't be ignored, because it's extra damage, but it's also not really very useful. It needs to be paid for in some manner for the weapon to be balanced [Note: If you feel the cERPPC isn't "paying for" that splash damage right now, sure, that's a fine stand but it's not relevant to this discussion; even in this case, the point stands just as true] and it isn't worth whatever it either currently costs or what it should cost.

Just take it away, and balance them as 10 damage ERPPC's.

Edited by Wintersdark, 15 September 2016 - 09:01 AM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 September 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Well you could potentially stack 3 ERPPCs if it didn't have splash and the associated power draw (and had lower heat).

I didn't really consider that as a realistic option.

I'd be fine with that, but I doubt that is even a possibility.

[MrVei]

I feel the base speed on all the PPCs needs to go up, so we can remove the speed perks some mechs get. i really have fun with PPCs on a MAD-3R and it has 50%+ to the speed. i dont understand why PPCs are 1.2km/s and a AC2 and guass is 2km/s.. should PPCs be the fastest???

[Deathlike]

Let's just accept that our balance overlord isn't capable of figuring out a way to make the IS ERPPC "not a terrible alternative" to its alternatives as it has been the case from the start (when Clans were introduced).

Inevitably it'll just be a nerf towards the IS PPC or CERPPC, instead of finding some attribute to buff that makes it compete within its bracket (and heat alone is just a mediocre placeholder unless you buff it too much).

Edited by Deathlike, 15 September 2016 - 11:02 AM.