93 replies to this topic

[XtremWarrior]

Maybe is it because i'm only a Tier 2 scrub, but what makes everyone say that Laser-Vomit is not the Meta anymore? Did i miss the information in an old patch note?

My experience is that i still see a lot of laser build, and they're just as effective as they were. I took a Black-Knight in my FP Deck for the event, i still get twice the damage i make with any other Mech - and I don't even use Alpha Strikes. Also BL-KNT was said to had been killed by the rescale...

There are other options now, hello KDK-3, but IM(very)HO, Laser-Vomit is still king of the battlefield. Sure, Gauss+PPC will beat em at a peaking contest, SRMs brawlers will beat them in close range, but in the course of a whole match, Laser Boat still prevail as they can be effective at long AND short range, never suffer from ammo shortage, and can still dish out some tremendous damages to any components in 1 sec - which might seems long for top players like you all are, but is still short enough to core a surprised Mech CT before he realises it.

Edited by XtremWarrior, 14 September 2016 - 03:23 AM.

[dervishx5]

Meta = what the best players use to kill each other. The rest try to imitate.

Meta may not apply to every tier. Consult your technician before using meta. Side effects of meta may include reking, salt generation, nerfing, Paul, white knighting, and inflated sense of skill. Seek immediate forum attention for games lasting longer than 4 minutes.

Meta, what the bads crave to be.

[Hunka Junk]

They're carefully releasing mechs and then reworking stuff.

Release mech. Tick.

Rework stuff. Tock.

Tick tock tick tock

This is to prevent people from noticing there's nothing new.

Then, they'll surprise us with a new broken, unplayested something that will demand a lot of future reworking.

Tick tock tick tock.

[dervishx5]

Hunka Junk, on 14 September 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

Then, they'll surprise us with

ftfy

[mogs01gt]

Since this game is too grindy, I dont have time to play on the PTS simply because my time is worth something. If they want players to play test, give them cbills or something else. That way they can get some real balancing data.

[StumbleBee]

Bud Crue, on 14 September 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

Rather, what they are interested in is making game play feel different, ideally VERY different than what the player base is accustomed to. In fact, they want the game play to feel completely new. Why?

Because when you are playing a "new" game you tend not to complain about a lack of new substantive content. Messing with these known mechanics is within PGI's skill set. Giving new substantive content is not (hey, how's the new assault mode coming?).

Actually, it's because they don't think the current setup is easy enough for new players to understand. They're trying less to please the current player base than to attract new players. Whether a significant untapped pool of potential MWO players really exists I leave as a thought exercise for the reader.

[Bud Crue]

StumbleBee, on 14 September 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:

Actually, it's because they don't think the current setup is easy enough for new players to understand. They're trying less to please the current player base than to attract new players. Whether a significant untapped pool of potential MWO players really exists I leave as a thought exercise for the reader.

Lets assume that "untapped pool of potential MWO players exists". These folks are going to hear through the grape vine that PGI has introduced a new game mechanism called "energy draw" which is used to regulate how your mech's weapons are fired, and which interacts with other mechanisms like heat production, etc. to reduce alpha strikes and theoretically increase ttk.

Yes indeed, I can see how hearing about such a thing will draw new folks in droves.

Sorry but I stand by my original theory that, this is just PGI's way to keep working with what they've got, in the only way they are capable of, so as to distract from the lack of substantive content additions to the game.

[StumbleBee]

Bud Crue, on 14 September 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

Yes indeed, I can see how hearing about such a thing will draw new folks in droves.

I didn't say it would work. The time to have made this type of deep change to gameplay was before the Steam release.

Edited by StumbleBee, 14 September 2016 - 06:51 AM.

[Novakaine]

Thanks for proving my point.
I have noticed the uptick in clan ac builds.

[DaZur]

pizzafly, on 13 September 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

Even if that brings stupid changes and a bad game?

Just because a person views something as stupid or bad, that does not necessarily mean it's stupid or bad only that that person disagrees with the change.

Believe it or not the pursuit of concession is more common that perfection.

[Kroete]

Karl Streiger, on 13 September 2016 - 11:08 PM, said:

You know I have collected some weapon stats from some of you (average accuracy and average damage per shot) and got a gaussian curve for those values.

PGI?
The company that needs a hotfix for every patch and sometimes even a hotfix for the hotfix?

Do you expect that this company with its "agressive balancing" even know what you are talking about?

Edit:
I mean up to 50% changes in some values for balancing shows clearly that they dont know **** about balancing solutions.

And using quirks for balancing?
You make every weapon on every mech different with this "solution".
Great way, now they dont have to balance 20 or more weapons, they have to balance 2000 or more weapons.

Edited by Kroete, 14 September 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

When you hammer the curve so it become flatter and you paint it red - you can have both

[Kirkland Langue]

If PGI had an underlying balance philosophy, or at least one that was successful, then we would have seen it years ago and changes would all be in magnitude. But they don't, and therefore are just stumbling around and hoping to bump into something that people are happy with.

Given that they don't have the magic bullet to balance, their choices are either to do something; or to do nothing. It's fairly clear that the Community wants PGI to do something (even if the community is torn about what should be done) - so one would think that PGI's current "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" philosophy is probably the best course of action.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 13 September 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

My dirty not-a-secret-at-all: I love it when PGI changes all sorts of **** around. It's like I get a shiny new MWO to learn again! Happy days!

Sadly, I guess most don't share my shiny-new-MWO enthusiasm

Thats cool and all but it also has to be fun to play and balanced.

[Revis Volek]

XtremWarrior, on 14 September 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

Maybe is it because i'm only a Tier 2 scrub, but what makes everyone say that Laser-Vomit is not the Meta anymore? Did i miss the information in an old patch note?

My experience is that i still see a lot of laser build, and they're just as effective as they were. I took a Black-Knight in my FP Deck for the event, i still get twice the damage i make with any other Mech - and I don't even use Alpha Strikes. Also BL-KNT was said to had been killed by the rescale...

There are other options now, hello KDK-3, but IM(very)HO, Laser-Vomit is still king of the battlefield. Sure, Gauss+PPC will beat em at a peaking contest, SRMs brawlers will beat them in close range, but in the course of a whole match, Laser Boat still prevail as they can be effective at long AND short range, never suffer from ammo shortage, and can still dish out some tremendous damages to any components in 1 sec - which might seems long for top players like you all are, but is still short enough to core a surprised Mech CT before he realises it.

Please re read what you just wrote....

You said PPC gauss combo beats it long range and SRMS beat it up close. Here another nugget of info, Ballistics will out DPS it so im pretty sure you just answered you own question. (with my help )


Laser Vomit is not the meta, it may be the best meta on a FEW CHASSIS but as far as the game itself as a whole it is surely not. Yea you still see laser builds because some mechs only have E hardpoints or really are the only viable ones. Like the ACH and MLX who have B hardpoints but nothing light enough weapon wise to use them wisely. While the Black Knight and Grasshoppers of the game will never change because they cant change hardpoints.

Edited by Revis Volek, 14 September 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[pizzafly]

DaZur, on 14 September 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

Just because a person views something as stupid or bad, that does not necessarily mean it's stupid or bad only that that person disagrees with the change.

Believe it or not the pursuit of concession is more common that perfection.

mmmmm....there are much more than a person blaming ED, I can see.
Anyway, what do you think about? Is there really a necessity of re-doing the balance once again??
Imo, the game is quite balanced right now.
Not only about IS vs Clan (have you noticed? "Clan OP" or "IS OP" are disappeared)
But also high dps builds work in puglandia, and also the """skil"" build based on high alpha can work too. and are used in the tourney.

So.. WHY ED?
What is the reason?
Give me the ...illumination

[Karl Streiger]

The game is only balanced on a macro level - you have to take the right mech - with the right quirks to face any enemy.
On this level MWO is indeed almost balanced.
The problem with this macro balance - the balance is extremely fragile - every month it could be crushed with a new mech arrival.


The game has to be balanced on the micro level. And the formula is:
average damage vs loaded weight multiplied by window of engagement multiplied by RoF

When the WoE is similar (CERPPC vs ERPPC) - the CERPPC is more compact and deals more damage
so it need to have: "more heat to increase the loaded weight, increased reload time to counter the alpha damage)

I have the "weapon stats of some (57) players and could be able to balance thos stuff as proposed - the issue is I don't want waste any more time in futile work that nobody understands or read

When you have the balance on this micro level you might have balance achieved in the IS - Clan Omnis is another story and need other tweaks. (StormCrow vs Gargoyle)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 September 2016 - 10:46 PM.

[Kroete]

Karl Streiger, on 14 September 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

The game is only balanced on a macro level - you have to take the right mech - with the right quirks to face any enemy.
On this level MWO is indeed almost balanced.
The problem with this macro balance - the balance is extremely fragile - every month it could be crushed with a new mech arrival.


The game has to be balanced on the micro level. And the formula is:
average damage vs loaded weight multiplied by window of engagement multiplied by RoF

When the WoE is similar (CERPPC vs ERPPC) - the CERPPC is more compact and deals more damage
so it need to have: "more heat to increase the loaded weight, increased reload time to counter the alpha damage)

I have the "weapon stats of some (57) players and could be able to balance thos stuff as proposed - the issue is I don't want waste any more time in futile work that nobody understands or read

When you have the balance on this micro level you might have balance achieved in the IS - Clan Omnis is another story and need other tweaks. (StormCrow vs Gargoyle)

Do you also have the mechs the data was collected with and has you also taken the quirks in your calculation?

Example:
Butterbee with 2x lrm 15
C1 with 2x lrm 15

We have the same weapon, but its different, one has 20% more rof and 10% more velocity basing on the mech its installed.


To make worthwhile data for microbalancing you need to remove the influence of the quirks.
Did you do that? And how?

Thats why i say, balancing is impossible with quirks influencing weapons.
Quirks can be applied to mechs that need them after basic balancing weapons.

Another point, you also need to put dot in your formular.
(DOT = damage over time, beamduration, pinpoint ac vs multishot-ac, ...).

[Tombs Clawtooth]

StumbleBee, on 14 September 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:

Actually, it's because they don't think the current setup is easy enough for new players to understand. They're trying less to please the current player base than to attract new players. Whether a significant untapped pool of potential MWO players really exists I leave as a thought exercise for the reader.

As someone who just started 2 weeks ago I have to say where the game is right now is one of the most balanced and pleasant experiences I've had entering ANY game as a green thumb. They would have to be psychotic to want to change it in any significant way. I came here by word of mouth and was interested in re-experiencing MechWarrior combat again after not seeing it for more than 10 years.

There's far less annoyances than previous games and a higher degree of polish. There's a significant amount of things to do compared to previous games.

Surprisingly I'd never even heard of it until a friend brought it up when I was showing him planetside. If MWO wants new players, they need to get on the ball with marketing the game and stop worrying about obsessively changing little details.

Content is great... A big playerbase with deep pockets makes it happen a lot faster though.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Tombs Clawtooth, on 14 September 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

As someone who just started 2 weeks ago I have to say where the game is right now is one of the most balanced and pleasant experiences I've had entering ANY game as a green thumb. They would have to be psychotic to want to change it in any significant way. I came here by word of mouth and was interested in re-experiencing MechWarrior combat again after not seeing it for more than 10 years.

There's far less annoyances than previous games and a higher degree of polish. There's a significant amount of things to do compared to previous games.

Surprisingly I'd never even heard of it until a friend brought it up when I was showing him planetside. If MWO wants new players, they need to get on the ball with marketing the game and stop worrying about obsessively changing little details.

Content is great... A big playerbase with deep pockets makes it happen a lot faster though.

This game does need a bigger marketing move. Can't argue with that assessment.