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Abandon The Energy Draw Now / Use Heat As It Was Meant To Be.


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#41 Greyhart

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 05:06 AM

too bloody true MuzMuzMuz.

The binary penalty is one of the issues. Add in heat scale penalties and people will be discouraged from alphas without using a sledge hammer to crack it.

#42 ScarecrowES

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 05:08 AM

View Post1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:


YOUR system, certainly. I'd be willing to test it and see where it goes.

This guy's? He...doesn't really have a system. Mostly just "HERE'S THE ORIGINAL TT HEAT SCALE. USE IT. #SUCKITPGI"

Blegh.


This was what I meant to emphasise. I suppose my post could have been clearer on that. Saw a lot of posts in this thread basically saying that the TT system can't work in real time, etc. Just wanted to note that it absolutely CAN work in real time, and does.

I've been able to demonstrate the mechanics, how to implement them, what that would look like, and what it would do differently. It's been stress tested with just about every special case mech someone has mentioned to me, and works fairly and successfully.

Didn't want that to get lost in the sea of argument here.

#43 Requiemking

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 06:54 AM

Scarecrow, can you provide me the link to that thread please? I would like to see it. However, for what the OP is proposing, I have to agree with 1453 R. That system, as the OP has described it, would basically force everyone to make Charger A1s to avoid the penalties of any other weapons system.

#44 1453 R

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 07:11 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 21 September 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

Scarecrow, can you provide me the link to that thread please? I would like to see it. However, for what the OP is proposing, I have to agree with 1453 R. That system, as the OP has described it, would basically force everyone to make Charger A1s to avoid the penalties of any other weapons system.



Believe this is the correct link. Or at least A correct link

#45 ScarecrowES

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 08:30 AM

View Post1453 R, on 21 September 2016 - 07:11 AM, said:



It is indeed the right topic.

Long read... and sorry, no pictures. I always prefer clarity over brevity, so it's a lot to get through. Happy to answer any questions folks might have - though the system is really quite simple once you understand the base mechanics.

#46 1453 R

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 08:41 AM

The key takeaway, Requiem, is that Scarecrow's system utilizes two different heat bars. One of them is our regular heat bar, with a maximum capacity determined by 'Mech build, quirks, masteries, and the like. The other heat bar is a fixed 30-point Penalty Scale which absorbs any heat the regular dissipation bar (a new iteration of the ED meter, in his system) can't handle. Heat on the penalty scale brings with it various Bad Juju.

it's as close to a functional representation of the TT heat system as anyone is ever likely to see in a real-time game, and it looks like it may very well work. The two-bar component of the system is absolutely essential, though. As Scarecrow is a wise and insightful individual who recognizes that imposing the TT heat PENALTY scale on our one singular regular heat bar leads to completely broken and utterly unfun gameplay.

#47 Requiemking

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 08:46 AM

View Post1453 R, on 21 September 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

The key takeaway, Requiem, is that Scarecrow's system utilizes two different heat bars. One of them is our regular heat bar, with a maximum capacity determined by 'Mech build, quirks, masteries, and the like. The other heat bar is a fixed 30-point Penalty Scale which absorbs any heat the regular dissipation bar (a new iteration of the ED meter, in his system) can't handle. Heat on the penalty scale brings with it various Bad Juju.

it's as close to a functional representation of the TT heat system as anyone is ever likely to see in a real-time game, and it looks like it may very well work. The two-bar component of the system is absolutely essential, though. As Scarecrow is a wise and insightful individual who recognizes that imposing the TT heat PENALTY scale on our one singular regular heat bar leads to completely broken and utterly unfun gameplay.

I can agree with that. Like I said, The OP's proposal would force everyone to make Charger A1s.

#48 1453 R

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 08:57 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 21 September 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

I can agree with that. Like I said, The OP's proposal would force everyone to make Charger A1s.


Heh, or Hollanders across the board. ALL THE GEESE.

#49 Requiemking

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 09:45 AM

View Post1453 R, on 21 September 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Heh, or Hollanders across the board. ALL THE GEESE.

As fun as that may be, I don't want to have to choose between a mere two design philosophies.

#50 ScarecrowES

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 10:44 AM

And really, my hope is that we make smart design decisions to support all "design philosophies" while discouraging - but not outright preventing - some of the less desirable things GH and ED are designed to address.

I absolutely hate the heavy-handed nature of both GH and ED... but especially ED because it's so overt at its heavy-handedness.

In the end, my belief is that under such heavy-handed systems, players will naturally gravitate in whichever direction gives the most clear advantage. It breeds the very thing it should destroy... homogeny.

#51 Uncle Totty

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 05:10 PM

View PostZakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Energy draw is a fools errand. It's a waste of time. The answer is already in the game.

PGI, you're not using it right.

Some of you have posted as if you've played the table top game. And if you have, either it's been a long time and you've forgotten or you were six and you didn't know what you were playing to begin with.

The heat in MWO is not the punishing counterbalance it should be. Right now it's just a binary ON (everything is fine) OFF (shut down).

And that is what allows for these meta builds to work.

Since you've forgotten the heat scale, allow me to refresh you.

The top of the scale is 30. On the table, that was an automatic shut down. So in MWO, it's your heat meter hitting 100%
Okay, the turn based game heat sinks worked a little differently than they do in real time. However, players still run their mechs and carry heat. Carrying Heat is what did you in.

Currently in MWO you can carry heat all day as long as you keep it under 100%. And if you do? A momentary shut down that damages your center structure a little bit.

Let's go over the heat scale. Lets see what used to happen when you carried heat for too long.

5 Heat: -1 movement points. You lost movement points. An average Mech lost 20-25% of it's speed because it was at 5 heat. FIVE. Carry heat for too long, and it should slow you down. Meaning that if you're constantly running at 10-13% heat you shouldn't be able to go full speed.

At 8 heat it was a +1 modifier to fire. We aren't even getting warm and it's harder to shoot. If you're carrying heat you shouldn't be able to easily snipe from 1K away.

At 10 heat: -2 movement points: So 30% on your game bar, you should be loosing speed. No more locusts sprinting around firing all their lasers with no consequence.

13 Heat: Harder to fire

14 Heat: Avoid shutdown on 4+! We are just under 50% on the magic bar in this game and we should have a 33% chance to shut down. That will make you pay attention to what weapon groups you fire wont it?

15 Heat: -3 movment points. Or about as fast as you go missing a leg.

17 Heat: Very hard to fire.

18 Heat: Avoid shutdown on 6+! A 50% chance to shut down the mech.

19 Heat: Ammo Explosion avoid on 4+! How many LRM boats are going to sit there and ride the heat at above 50% with the knowledge that they have a 33% chance to blow their ammo? I sure would love to see the guy's face when he's all the way in the back happily spamming the LRMs when he just suddenly blows up.

Some of you damn kids haven't even read this far and you're already typing up your snappy comeback. There is no "Too long, Didn't read" section sonny boy. You have to read the whole book. You've been warned.

20 Heat: -4 Movement points.

23 Heat: Ammo Explosion, avoid on 4+ Shutdown, avoid on 6+. Now you know you're too hot! Fecal matter is about to collide with a rotating blade. Is there any concern in MWO of this happening? No. By all means keep firing away.

24 Heat: Really hard to shoot. I suppose you could add an effect where the screen just gets blurry.

25 Heat: -5 Movement points. AKA: every Assault mech in the game has stopped moving.

26 Heat: Shutdown, avoid on 10+ or an 83% chance you're going to shut down. Again, we haven't hit the bar of 30 yet. If paint chips were your favorite snack, I'll remind you that 30 is equal to the 100% heat bar where you shut down.

28 Heat: Ammo Explosion, avoid on 8+. Or a 66% chance your Mad Dog flushes every thing in the left torso out the back door if you're lucky and have CASE.

Then 30 Heat: Shutdown.

I feel like this is where PGI started. At the top of the list. "Oh. Says here shut down. Okay we'll go with that."

"What about all these other words, below?"

"Meh, Too long. Didn't Read."

Okay, PGI, I apologize. I've had some jabs at your expense. You have done a good job on this game and I have thrown money at it and will continue to throw money at it.

My point is this: why invent an entirely new system to try and make the game fit it's table top origins when you haven't even explored the ways to use the system that made table top players think long and hard before they pulled the alpha trigger?

The threat of random shutdown would make a major difference alone. Carefully fire weapons or shut down when don't expect it. You know exactly when you're going to shut down and that's what allows most meta builds to function.

Random Ammo Explosions. Enough said. Keep her cool or do a live field test of CASE. (Because if you played on the table, the real reason you took CASE was you knew you might run hot and blow your ammo.)

Decreased Movement is enough to keep any Light mech from running and gunning like they do. And it is why no Assault ever gave a light mech a moment of worry.

Harder to shoot is something that can be reproduced in the game and what good do all those guns do if you can't hit.

Please, don't add something that was never a part of the game. Add something that was. Make heat something to be constantly worried about. Not ignored.

Hey, bonus side effect: Gauss Rifles become relevant again! No chance for heat related ammo explosion. And you can afford to fire them a lot. Don't forget that when the gun explodes, it's a bad day in America. (Canada too.) CASE wont save you from that!


I can see this happening with a ten second delay after you first fire for the penalties to hit. Hold fire for ten seconds, and the timer resets and you can fire with no further penalties for another ten seconds.

#52 SlightlyMobileTurret

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 05:52 PM

OP, Your suggestions will make Gauss Rifles the only long range weapons worth taking. You think they aren't relevant right now? Tell that to all the comp player putting Gauss/PPC on everything that can do it because PPFLD and Dakka have been better than lasers for a few months now.

Also, this will kill lights. or force them to poke more, which is a waste) Forever. They're already noncompetitive (thanks to re-scale) and you want to NERF them MORE?

Have you seen how easily people leg them these days?

Edited by Keshav Murali, 21 September 2016 - 05:52 PM.


#53 Davegt27

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 08:11 PM

zakhodit never played BT book case game

may I ask the turn time scale?

or in other words how much time elapsed from the end of your turn until your turn comes up again?

do you roll the dice in BT book case or is it pure look up tables?

heat dissipation dose BT have it ?
does it go down with time?
if so how much time?

thanks in advance

#54 Tombs Clawtooth

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 10:21 PM

View PostZakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

OP


This was never part of any mech warrior game I've played since the 90s.

Firing 1xERPPC would give you a 30% chance of randomly shutting down.

The only practical weapon that would be reliable without any random chances would be the gauss rifle, and it would become the only thing that would be used. RNG is not competitive. Rolling dice does not require skill, hints RNG being an aspect of the gameplay for table top.

Movement penalties that scaled with heat above 50% would make sense in this game, possibly even hud issues above 75%, but much harsher penalties would destroy a lot of the fun factor. It's a game, not a simulator.

Edited by Tombs Clawtooth, 21 September 2016 - 10:23 PM.


#55 Amerante

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 10:33 PM

Still the penalties could be applied after 5 sec, instead of instant. so you have room to manouver, but if you contantly run hot, or make big heatspikes, you may get the penalties.
Or getting extra 5-10 free heat cap before the penalties.
Or weapons aren't instanly add their heat, but in a short timeinterval.

There are options...

#56 Tombs Clawtooth

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 12:12 AM

View PostAmerante, on 21 September 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:

Still the penalties could be applied after 5 sec, instead of instant. so you have room to manouver, but if you contantly run hot, or make big heatspikes, you may get the penalties.
Or getting extra 5-10 free heat cap before the penalties.
Or weapons aren't instanly add their heat, but in a short timeinterval.

There are options...



What are the benefits to running anything besides a gauss rifle? Straight 2xGauss rifle builds are already pretty viable on live servers.

How do you think they will be once we have such a system like this in place?

Edited by Tombs Clawtooth, 22 September 2016 - 12:14 AM.


#57 ScarecrowES

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 08:30 AM

View PostTombs Clawtooth, on 21 September 2016 - 10:21 PM, said:


This was never part of any mech warrior game I've played since the 90s.

Firing 1xERPPC would give you a 30% chance of randomly shutting down.

The only practical weapon that would be reliable without any random chances would be the gauss rifle, and it would become the only thing that would be used. RNG is not competitive. Rolling dice does not require skill, hints RNG being an aspect of the gameplay for table top.

Movement penalties that scaled with heat above 50% would make sense in this game, possibly even hud issues above 75%, but much harsher penalties would destroy a lot of the fun factor. It's a game, not a simulator.


Penalties don't quite work like this in TT. Your heat cap (sinks) determine what you can fire in a turn (10 seconds) without penalties. You'd only need a heat cap of 15 (unless we count movement and environmental issues too) to allow you to fire that PPC penalty free every turn.

MWO would need a higher cap because of faster cooldowns, but same principle. You only get penalized for the amount you exceed your cap. A 4xPPC Warhawk typically runs a heat cap of 56... so you get a 4-point penalty for an alpha... but run perfectly penalty free if you only fire 3.

Many TT penalties do not translate well to a real time game. Anything with a random chance is no fun. Ammo explosions aren't exactly fair. You can't really produce a chance-to-hit penalty. But some of these you can simulate. You can produce HUD problems that make it difficult for a player to aim... that works kinda like a chance-to-hit penalty.

It's possible to implement the TT heat system faithfully while fudging the penalties in a way that makes sense.

#58 Lunatic_Asylum

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 08:49 PM

Agreed, PTS is a waste of money and resources, as it showed that it is useless and does not improve the overall gameplay. The original heat and ghost heat should be kept in the game.

#59 1453 R

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 07:09 AM

View PostLunatic_Asylum, on 22 September 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

Agreed, PTS is a waste of money and resources, as it showed that it is useless and does not improve the overall gameplay. The original heat and ghost heat should be kept in the game.



No it bloody g'damn well shouldn't. Ghost Heat is a travesty and needs to be expunged. Whether or not ED is the proper replacement is hotly debated though, which is good. That's what the PTS is for - testing things.

Imposing the TT heat penalty scale straight onto MWO's heat bar is stupid beyond all comprehension, as I've rather exhaustively pointed out, but there's a few different ideas for incorporating the spirit of the TT penalty scale in a way that doesn't break MWO outright. If we're lucky, we'll get to try them. Either way, this is all on PTS for a reason, eh?

#60 Kael Posavatz

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 11:55 AM

View Post1453 R, on 23 September 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

No it bloody g'damn well shouldn't. Ghost Heat is a travesty and needs to be expunged. Whether or not ED is the proper replacement is hotly debated though, which is good. That's what the PTS is for - testing things.


Ghost Heat has...issues. I'm not sure I would call it a travesty, but certainly unwieldy, difficult for new players to understand, and riddled with workarounds.

The thing is, Russ said that ED should only be implemented if it is superior to GH. And frankly I don't think it is. It closes the loopholes, and the initial iterations were simple enough to follow. But the subsequent PTS has moved away from the 1-damage:1-ED ratio and back towards every weapon having its own rules.

The bigger fault in the PTS is that we aren't really testing Energy Draw anymore. Instead we're testing adjustments to weapons, to heatsinks, to it seems like everything but Energy Draw.

Leave ED alone for a moment. It seems like there are two big failings with the PTS. I'm going to climb back into High School Science for a moment so bear with me.

1) An experiment should test only one variable at a time.
This is...impractical for a lot of reasons. But it is not unreasonable to ask that variables be limited. Instead the testing field (not the stuff being tested, but the environment it is being tested in) bares little semblance to the live server. PTS has 4v4 QP (which the live server doesn't have), and lacks FW (which plays very differently on live servers than QP does). As for the variables being tested, it often feels like someone flinging spaghetti noodles at a wall and seeing what sticks.

2) Negative data is still viable data.
Since the announcement of ED-PTS#3 or so, I've come to suspect that there is an underlying assumption that ED will be superior if the proper ancillary ratios (weapon cooldown/ED, heatsink capacity and dissipation, depth of bar, recharge rate, etc.) is found. Rather than test a number of different concepts to find something superior to Ghost Heat (ED was one proposal, Scarecrow had another, I've seen people suggest separate ED bars for each weapon type, etc). Rather than accept a negative datapoint that seems directed towards ED, PGI's interpretation has been that the ED mechanic itself is fine, it's everything else that needs to be fixed to make ED work.

Testing Criteria
ED's 'test' (that is, what determines whether or not it is viable) boils down to "is this superior to Ghost Heat Y/N?"

This reminds me very strongly of the Great Rebalancing last year. Much of it fell apart with the failure of InfoWar that diluted the Rebalancing to redoing the quirks. With InforWar PGI started with a concept that was a good idea but unworkable in practice. Rather than sit back and consider how else they could come at the problem, they flung more variables at it trying to find that magic place where it all worked. The end result was InfoWar was scrapped and with it most of the Rebalancing. Quirks moved to a systemic approach (they had largely been ad hoc previously), which was worthwhile. But on the whole MWO lost out on what, 3-4 months of development time?

My fear is that the longer this drags on, the harder it will be for PGI to justify not putting ED in, even if ED is notably inferior to GH, simply due to the time they and their players have invested in it.

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 23 September 2016 - 12:14 PM.






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